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Thread: Why AMM?

  1. #21
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosie View Post
    "Odd bees from here and there"
    LOL. Didn't mean to imply he was casual about it!
    He did mention the sources in his presentation.

  2. #22

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    I haven't found any problem with keeping hybrid bees
    If I have a black and white dog which chases sheep that doesn't mean I have a sheepdog let alone a border collie.
    There are AMM bees in existence but lots of people claim to have AMM type bees which are most likely are crosses
    Wing morphometry only really tells whether its worth DNA testing and then typically small samples tested (50 bees)
    In most of Britain it would be impossible to maintain purity even if you started with a 100% AMM queen
    Lot's of statements like hybrids have bad temper etc are just sweeping and untrue
    Unfortunately sometimes beekeeping feels like standing in a complex of caves
    Someone with a loud voice shouts and the echoes seem to go on forever
    I am all in favour of keeping Black Bees but lets not get overly zealous about it.
    "All we are saying is give bees a chance" as the beatles sang.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Hi DR.
    The trick is to establish a bee breeding group with local beekeepers where everyone is singing off the same hymnsheet.
    After a while open mated queens start to produce good results.

    Hybrids or random crosses can be fine at first but in my experience a lot of beekeepers who start out with good bees run into problems with aggression after a couple of generations.

  4. #24
    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    With such a cracking user name I'm looking forward to hearing more from you Drone Ranger.

    To continue your sheepdog analogy, a black and white dog may not be much use. But if you picked a black and white dog that had straight short to medium length hair, was of medium size, an alert look about it, ears that sat above the head and usually flopped over then you would be increasing your chance of finding a pure-bred sheepdog than any old black and white mongrel. Your selected sheepdog would then be found to possess the traits required of a sheepdog, such as attentiveness, intelligence, a willingness to concentrate for long spells and to accept and learn commands easily.

    Yes, maintaining purity in bees stocks is hard, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try. After keeping whatever local mongrels came my way for well over a decade I've decided to try to do something to help maintain pure stocks and select mild, productive bees. I reckon that you are wasting your time doing that with mixed types of bee as the results will remain unpredictable. At the moment my bees are very mixed - this is due to me restocking thanks to the generosity of beginners who had obtained very mixed bees themselves. I can see Carniolans, Italians, maybe Buckfast and Amm all in there. They get tetchy readily, and some of them are very swarmy. However we've been able to stock our new association apiary with bees that seem purer. These bees are less swarmy and better behaved on the whole than mine. From those I'll be selecting the best-behaved types and propagating queens from the best. Some of that propagation will be at a remote site. You aren't so far away and would be most welcome to come and see the progress (when and if we have some!).

    G.
    Last edited by gavin; 21-06-2011 at 09:37 AM. Reason: typos

  5. #25

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    Gavin and Jon thanks for your comments I like what you are saying and I would not want to disagree for the sake of it but it's beyond difficult and just inside impossible to maintain an AMM colony with open mating so it's A.I. or nothing.
    You will probably have used this program already http://www.drawwing.org
    called DrawWing which some people use to select their breeding stock You would need to cut the queen's wings off (don't go there ) or you will have to settle for the poor old drone again I think.
    Because of the swarming season I have lots of hives which I will reduce before winter approx 25 only 2 or 3 are grumpy ungrateful so and so's, but they will be dealt with when I recombine hives by choosing the gentlest and best. I don't bother what colour they are some of the best may be black some of the worst may be black I seen both.
    If I lived in central London again I would choose a UK bred queen possibly from KBS they are totally yellow completely gentle and not even slightly likely to sting the neighbours. OK that queen might have to be replaced by another after a couple of years but it's horses for courses.
    The bees I have at the moment are very swarmy but they build up fast for the oil seed rape, they are (mostly) very gentle, they make it through the winter every year so that's most of my boxes ticked.,
    Now I would be happy enough to add a selection criteria of AMM type but black isn't that its just a colour.
    Gavin I hear you have made great progress in a very short space of time with the apiary so well done on that plus thanks for the EFB pics elsewhere

  6. #26
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    Daughter and I had a lovely afternoon with our mongrels yesterday. Some are yellowish, some black, some in between. Most go back years and the queens mate with whatever drones are around. All behaved impeccably and we enjoyed working with them. Even the ones left open for a good long time while we split them were good-natured. The only pure AMMs we ever had died of acarine after a year and, given that we had no other bees at the time, they must have brought it with them. So we continue to breed for good nature as that's the most important when B & Bs go wandering round the garden, get modest amounts of honey, and sometimes are able to split or pick up a swarm, though none of them are particularly that way inclined. They're delightful girls, whatever their origins!

  7. #27
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    Hi DR,

    We are familiar with Drawwing and Beemorph as well as the good old projection of wings on a screen method. A number of Scottish beekeepers attended a training for trainers course organised by BIBBA. The aim of the course was to look at the various methods and then train our local beekeepers in the technique. For a sample you require the right wing from 30 - 50 worker bees, not the wing from a queen. There was a bee breeding course organised last Sept at Scotlandwell. Details of this course is on this forum. Gavin may provide the link for you. If you would like to check the % Amm in your colonies e-mail me for further instructions on how to take the sample and where to send them. The results will eventually be used in a Scottish survey of Amm. There are currently some areas of Scotland that pure native Amm still exist and we aim to try and find more areas. Scotland is ideally suited for preserving our native bees as we have fewer beekeepers than England and also have geographic isolation.
    You just can't go on the colour of bees there are a number of other factors to consider Drawwing is just one of the tools to use in assessing your bees there are many more.

  8. #28
    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    I note with some satisfaction that Googling 'Scottish Bee Breeding' gets you there. Here:

    http://www.sbai.org.uk/Breeding/

  9. #29
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Hi DR.
    My queens are all open mated and I have a couple which are 100% AMM according to Drawwing.
    I have near native queens mated at my own apiary and also at another one which had a dozen colonies producing Galtee drones.

    There is a series of scattergrams posted in this thread.

    Open mating is clearly not as controlled as AI but the trick is to flood your mating apiary with your own drones and don't let dodgy colonies make drones. I put frames of drone brood from preferred colonies into more iffy colonies and this largely suppresses their drone production. The preferred colonies are thus stimulated to produce more drone brood and I give them drone comb to promote this. I was surprised at results I got from matings at my main apiary on my allotment.

    These ones were mated there

    col33-dec-2010.jpgcol48wide.jpg
    Last edited by Jon; 21-06-2011 at 01:00 PM.

  10. #30

    Default wing it

    Jimbo I hope you know I was kidding about the queen wing
    The 50 worker sample will each only be half sisters to the queen possibly 75% related if the drones were from her own hive.
    Whereas the drones she produces would presumably be 100% representative of her genes which is why I put them forward for the chop.

    Thanks for the kind offer to genotype my bees but they are beyond redemption Lol .

    Jon I am truly amazed by your results keep up the good work
    I'm still like (Nellie who started this thread) not sure why I need AMM bees mine are OK but I'm glad somebody loves them

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