All fur coat and no knickers ...

[Jon]

What's wrong with Colonsay genetics ? - lack of availability perhaps.

The trouble with Colonsay bees or the West Donegal bees I mentioned is that they will have zero adaptation to varroa as they are from mite free areas.
The arrival of mites likely gets rid of the most susceptible stock quite quickly.
I am curious to see what they have in Donegal.
The Galtee breeding group have been doing some work on selecting for more resistant stock for several years now so may be some way down the road in terms of bees which can deal with mites.

[brothermoo]

Or you might just find that they have some super-VSH gene that hasnt been tapped into yet
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[Blackcavebees]

Or you might just find that they have some super-VSH gene that hasnt been tapped into yet
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brothermoo.wordpress.com

I like that wishful thinkin' Moo, don't build your hope up though.

[prakel]

Not quite sure where I'm trying to go with this (and don't want to derail Little John's thread too far). It's probably one for our band of talented geneticists:

How much (or little) isolation is needed for a true local type to develop in the kind of sustainable manner that allows it to survive over hundreds of years? This might not be too easy a question to answer what with the vagaries of drone-drift but I find the idea of these local ecotypes quite fascinating in the light of what we now know of the effects of inbreeding.

[mbc]

I think in a hypothetical stable situation very little isolation is needed, a bit like local dialects which blur at the edges.

[GRIZZLY]

I would still bring in colonsay or galtee queens to add to the gene pool in my apiary as my stock is quite isolated with reguard to other bee colonies non of which is amm .

[Little_John]

Not quite sure where I'm trying to go with this (and don't want to derail Little John's thread too far).

Good morning, Prakel - your comment made me chuckle !! "Derail" ? LOL ...

This thread was intended to be about what I see as being 'deficiencies' in the BIBBA/SICAMM approach towards the preservation of (what are believed to be) native stocks of AMM.

I guess I'd hoped that this thread might generate a few ideas, such as the above august bodies being encouraged to make it their business to also be involved in the physical supply of AMM queens in some way - such as the raising of EU sponsorship towards the creation of breeding stations, providing sales outlets, active marketing - that sort of thing.

But instead, this thread has become deflected towards other issues - no doubt important in their own right - but nowt to do with the OP.

'Top Bee' is of course quite right to say that being black is no guarantee of a high level of AMM genes, which is one reason why I'm in the process of converting to Welsh Blacks (Cows yes, Sheep yes, so why not 'Welsh Black' Bees as well ?) from a reliable source. These are not being described by the vendor as 'Welsh AMM' for precisely that reason. But - they are known to be good stock, and right now that's as much as I can wish for.

I sourced one excellent Welsh Black queen from Ricky Wilson last year, which I'm currently using to provide a supply of drones for my 'closed' mating system. When my other queens arrive, I'll then have genes from two different sources, which I think is the best approach to be starting-off with.

'Top Bee' is also right to highlight the deficiencies inherent in open mating systems, to which I would also add my own criticism of Artificial Insemination, for using AI may well be good 'science', but it's pi$$-poor 'bee-breeding', as drone selection is performed by humans, and not by the bees themselves.

Oh - did I mention a 'closed' mating system ? This of course has to be the answer to our prayers (perhaps I should add 'IMHO' here ?) - but are either BIBBA or SICAMM involved in such developments - of course not ...

All I'll say at this point is that I'm currently using a highly modified version of US Patent 5158497 (http://www.google.com/patents/US5158497), with the addition of an ante-chamber in which selection by competition takes place, with only the strongest drones being able to proceed into the actual mating chamber itself. The virgin queen is also 'tethered' in such a way that - rather than being held flat and statically - she 'flies' through the air with wings unrestrained (thus providing the best possible realism for the approaching drone), and has near full three-dimensional movement so that the queen can be 'bent double' in order that the drone may enter her from below - as this is now known from high-speed film footage to be the physical attitude adopted during copulation.


But - why should such (dare I say 'important' ?) work be left to one individual working with precious few resources - surely this is the kind of project which BIBBA and/or SICAMM really ought to be involved with ?

So - this is the sort of topic I had hoped this thread might raise for discussion, rather than generating the usual bun-fight over AMM fundamentals.

LJ

[prakel]

This thread was intended to be about what I see as being 'deficiencies' in the BIBBA/SICAMM approach towards the preservation of (what are believed to be) native stocks of AMM.

I guess I'd hoped that this thread might generate a few ideas, such as the above august bodies being encouraged to make it their business to also be involved in the physical supply of AMM queens in some way - such as the raising of EU sponsorship towards the creation of breeding stations, providing sales outlets, active marketing - that sort of thing.

Little John,

On another thread there's the mention that they haven't even decided on the daily programme of their conference later this year even though they're already selling the tickets. Might be the way things are done but it seems a back-to-front approach to a simple person like me. This sort of sums up the way I see BIBBA quite nicely; great ideas (even if I don't totally agree with them) but insufficient drive to get on top of the game. Others will disagree with me, but this IS the impression that they give me as an outsider looking in so that's what needs to be addressed.

Another example is the new, better website which they set up early last year. What happened to that? Is it really that difficult to set up an inviting regularly updated website about bees?


Regarding your comments re Top Bee's first post, if it's who I hope it is rather than who I think it is he could probably offer a lot of interesting experience and knowledge to this forum but instead of that it appears that he has some other agenda for being here.

[Jon]

LJ
In most places on GB mainland the bee genetics are going to be completely mixed up.
Morphometry is totally useless with populations like this and will not separate out Amm from the background population.
It will produce a lookalike which probably has a lot of Amm genetics if you are happy with that.

I think a better approach is to source good stock from various places in the British isles and start working with that.
There is certainly pure stock in some parts of Ireland especially in the far west.
Scotland and Wales will have similar pockets.

There are plenty of Bibba people posting here so Steve or someone else can explain current thinking.
In recent years infighting in Bibba has been a barrier to progress but by all accounts things are moving forward now.

I am more involved with NIHBS than with Bibba and we have certainly discussed the idea of setting up remote mating stations.
NIHBS also places a lot of importance on formal research such as the sampling and genetic work to be carried out at NUIG Galway.

There is a huge demand for Amm queens which is not being met and I think you are right to raise that issue.
Queen rearing is not that complicated yet few in the British Isles are doing it in any quantity.
I ordered 9 cases of 18 apideas from Swienty yesterday - destined for established and new queen rearing groups in NI
NIHBS has a regional structure based on the 4 provinces of Ireland and we are coordinating this as the Ulster reps for the organisation.

[Jon]

Or you might just find that they have some super-VSH gene that hasnt been tapped into yet
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brothermoo.wordpress.com

In that case the Nihbs reps for Ulster will be retiring to a life of luxury on the back of the fortune to be made!
Must contact Branson to see if I can buy that Caribbean island from him.

Necker Island - the new black bee sanctuary.
Carried from colony to colony in a sedan chair as some minion checks frame by frame for queen cells.