Completely agree with this. with my single framers the wasps will attack once the population gets too low, probably the same for any sort of hive, but as long as there is hatching brood and plently of candy they seem to be ok. Any drone layers or queenless bees just get wiped out very quickly as the pop of workers decreases.Originally Posted by Jon
Manley mentioned so called mating swarms in 'Honey Farming' where he put his own interesting spin on the phenomena. Although his account isn't exactly the way that others describe their observations it might still offer a valid line of thought. Remember also, he was using mating nucs consisting of bs frames, so considerably larger than the mini-nucs commonly used today.
Another trouble met with by the queen-rearer is the loss of virgins with mating swarms. These swarms are rather difficult to prevent in very hot weather when the nuclei have become too strong, for they are prone to hang out in bunches from their entrances. Now if a virgin should fly while such a cluster is hanging, the whole lot will sometimes join her and form a cluster on some bush nearby, in which case the bees never return to the hive, and if not found quickly will eventually fly away as a small swarm.
R.O.B Manley 'Honey Farming' 1946
Last edited by prakel; 17-08-2015 at 10:10 AM.
Hi Prakel,
Manley's description suggests that the box is over packed with bees but I dont think that that is the case in Jons apideas ?
In what I witnessed, the queen was a laying queen restrained behind an excluder, the bees left the box coming out just like a swarm would do from a hive. when field bees returned to the box they seemed to sense that hive had gone and they left to i assume join the swarm. The bees returned fanning just like Jon describes but there was never any queen in the swarm as she was trapped in the box. This nuc was by no means crouded, infact i was starting to get worried about it due to wasps testing it.
I'm really at a loss as to why the bees tried to leave the box, it explains why many in many of my nucs and apideas why one week they are full of bees then the next empty for no apparent reason.
I have now removed the excluder ( remember this is a mated laying Q) so will keep an eye out to see how long the nuc remains in situ
That's why I was careful to point out that it doesn't tie in exactly with what is being reportedI think the interesting part of Manley's observation is that he was associating it with two different mechanisms combined, rather than a defined form of mating behaviour.
Yes that happens quite often but it is not what I am describing at all.
There is a laying queen and she lays up all the frames and if you leave her too long in the apidea they may well abscond.
that's what the excluder is for.
The bees abscond but come back as they have no queen.
problem is they will keep doing they and I find they eventually kill the queen.
When this happens you need to get the queen out and use her somewhere else.
That's why I was careful to point out that it doesn't tie in exactly with what is being reported
I used to run around collecting the little swarms and then I realised they usually come back on their own anyway. I think some do get lost especially if several queens take to the air at the same time as the bees often end up in a clump together.
I have seen the bees leave the apidea and have seen the queen exit as well.
It's not a situation of overcrowding as described by Manley.
It is all worker driven as opposed to being queen driven. The workers leave before the queen, or at least most of them do, and they also return before the queen after the cluster breaks up and then fan at the entrance.
No your wrong - frame was not layed up and they have plenty of room
Of course they will come back if the queen is not with them
What I observed was a type of swarming behavaior, the bees had no reason to leave the nuc, it was not over crowded in fact about half full if even, there was plenty of food and brood in all stages plus emerging brood.
This behavior is unique to apideas and mating boxes in general and is definitely swarming related and sod all to do with mating
Well this is exactly what was happening to my nuc ,
workers leave before queen - YES
Fanning at entrance - YES
The only difference was that the queen was not able to join the swarm
Still not convinced that this swarming / absconding behaviour is anything to do with mating
Jon,
I think a more likely explanation for all this is that Bee Wolf-Cooper and subsequent persons labelled nuc absconders as mating swarms for want of a better explanation and the term has been dragged up every time a mating nuc hive tries to abscond. And each time there is no hard evidence to prove the existence of such a phenomena apart from queens laying several days later which could be totally unrelated.
The whole concept goes against nature,eg survival of the fittest and prevention of inbreeding
Mating behaviour has been very well examined and there is nothing published by anyone reptutable (academic) to promote other theories.
given this, there is definitely some sort of swarming behaviour related to possibly newly mated queens in mating hives
I'll put forward this theory for AVM there is nothing to prove that this is incorrect
Actual AVM Phils Theory
Mating nuc is set up using youngish bees
Virgin queen or cell present
There is no laying queen pheromones present so you start get the development of laying workers
virgin mates (normally) and her pheromones change
Bees detect pheromones from partly developed laying workers plus those of a new queen
Bees dont like this and go into swarming mode because they think there is two queens in the box (speculation here)
Bees swarm with newly mated queen
Result - absconding with perhaps a return (bees confused)
(copyright Philip Earle 17.8.15)
Last edited by busybeephilip; 17-08-2015 at 02:23 PM.
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