Agm/egm 2014

[gavin]

No, there was an appeal from a member, one that I disagreed strongly with at the last AGM, that the SBA should not be so quiet on this. I heartily agree, and told him so and thanked him during the break. Most people on here would have been surprised to see that!

One local association in the area of one of these entrepreneurs has had some interesting interactions with them that revealed very clearly that they don't know what they are doing (other than being very good at attracting funding) and were making claims of collaboration with local beekeepers that were just not true. A large amount of public funding has gone in that direction and folk are unsure what has come out of that.

It is a difficult issue, this one of trying to reverse the tide of people jumping on bandwagons apparently to make money. Funders, politicians, media, the public have all bought into this business of the bees dying, so they are all susceptible to well-presented stuff about 'doing good' even when it is unlikely to achieve that.

Letters to the magazine, approaches to SBA office bearers, these are the sorts of things that might prompt some action from the SBA. It is, of course, very difficult to make accusations of people running businesses, but the SBA and indeed local associations could be issuing general warnings about commercial activity that does not seem to involve established beekeepers or beekeeping organisations.

[gavin]

I should never post that early on a Sunday! Missed the point completely. Doh! Right, I've had some coffee, experienced and beginner beekeepers.

Alan Riach did reply that the SBA is aware of this and has introduced an Intermediate part of the education schedule, but I think that the issue is the dearth - in some areas - of experienced beekeepers able and willing to pass on their skills to people who are now beekeepers but with a lot to learn.

There was talk of developing teaching materials appropriate to Scotland rather than the Course in a Case which seems to have had a mixed reception. Maybe I just should have piped up and said: 'Send them to SBAi!!'

The whole issue is plagued with problems. In some places little history of association visits to each other's apiaries, one of the best ways of spreading knowledge and allowing people to compare the good and the bad locally. Many experienced beekeepers can't be bothered wasting time teaching newbees (and why should they?!). Where there are experienced beekeepers sometimes they've been alienated by things done in the past. Association apiaries set up against their wishes (worried that their influence may wane?). Imports of non-native bees into association apiaries when that was totally unacceptable to them. That sort of thing.

I should also repeat that having experience doesn't necessarily mean that the experience is worth passing on. You quite often get bad advice from people with a lot of experience. How do you filter that?

So what's to be done? That was an appeal from the South of Scotland Beekeepers Association, so if you've got good ideas or have seen some in action, please let's hear them. There are representatives of SSBA reading here, and our Education Convener stops by too from time to time (and can be pointed here if there is useful discussion).

G.

[gavin]

...... but the SBA and indeed local associations could be issuing general warnings about commercial activity that does not seem to involve established beekeepers or beekeeping organisations.

I'm talking to myself now. That approach would have hit these people:

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/loc...-award-1.40284

.. which would have been completely wrong! There were inexperienced yet they approached and were given help by both a prominent poster on here and myself, they became very good beekeepers very quickly, and they eked out a small grant or two on very low wages. There were no clear links to beekeeping organisations and no beekeeping qualifications. This is a really tricky issue.

[Jon]

Gav. I am in NI rather than Scotland but we have similar issues to contend with here.
My opinion is that our bee exam system is not fit for purpose as it is all about lists and bee facts with a negligible component on beekeeping skills.
Ruary will likely read this and shoot me down but I have been really surprised at the lack of practical skills in people who have passed the exams. That's not the fault of the new beekeepers. They do what is asked of them but they are just not taught or asked to demonstrate a lot of practical stuff. (Microscopy excepted!)
Beekeeping is a practical hobby so surely the teaching and development of skills should be top priority.
It is not unusual here to find that the senior beekeepers in their 70s have never mastered the basics such as swarm control, finding, marking and clipping queens, or queen rearing and some of them are really poor handlers as well.
Some of them are the apiary managers presumably due to seniority rather than skills.
A couple of weeks ago one of the other allotment holders came over to me and said he was thinking of keeping a bee hive on his plot.
He is a guy in his late 50s who has never kept bees and he planned to get the bees from a beekeeper friend in his 80s who said he could learn on the job.
The location of his plot is completely unsuitable. The combination of a total beginner starting up beekeeping with bees of unknown aggression levels while surrounded by people fills me with dread. I tried to steer him away from this course of action but people are filled with this 'save the bees' nonsense and can't see the downside.
I have seen quite a few novice beekeepers who have bought or been gifted really aggressive bees from the senior beekeepers.
I think that in an ideal world bees should be supplied through an association and this should be linked to mentoring. There should be a system in place to ensure quality of the bees supplied.

[gavin]

I think you'd be a great choice Kate.

This issue of training, experience, quality of beekeeping and beekeeping advice is not easy to get right. I reacted yesterday in private when there was loose talk of restricting benefits to those - like me - without any formal beekeeping training. And Jon is right, passing exams does not guarantee beekeeping competence, but I do believe that it helps, on average. Definitely support the idea of an emphasis on the practical side. Definitely support an enhanced effort in education to try to lift the quality of beekeeping in Scotland. I've no idea how you can weed out poor advice when there are people out there (old and young, with or without qualifications) who you would think ought to know their craft well but confidently give out bad advice.

And on the question of beginners getting truly awful bees from senior beekeepers - I've been there, done that myself. Despite breeding from a calm, nice queen I sold one colony the year before last that was one of the nastiest I've seen when up to full size. It isn't easy raising reliable stocks when you can't control the skies. OK, it is worse when the recipient gets no support, and when the bees were already known to be foul, but you can't always get it right.

[Jon]

I am pro exams but I think the emphasis should be on practical skills rather than theory.

[busybeephilip]

the emphasis should be on practical skills rather than theory.

I for one entirely agree with you Jon. I have tried several times at committee meetings to get Belfast to set up their own beginners beekeeping course. FG was all ready to go ahead and do this at Cultra before he gave up with the club due to obstacles from FIBKA supporters and our friends in greenmount. Basically, it is already being done by yourself and alan at minnowburn on the beginners night, this could be structured into a course with certificate at the end, I'm sure it would be very popular and far more meaningful than the prelim course currently running

[Trog]

A lot of 'aggression' can be down to the way the bees are handled, too. We learnt the craft in an association that had quite a few feisty colonies so learnt very quickly how to read the bees. Amazing how bees that would 'follow' one day would be perfectly docile on another day. Of course, not everyone has the leisure to come back another day if a gentle knock on the hive produces a discouraging tone from their ladyships but it saves a lot of hassle!

[Ruary]

Ruary will likely read this and shoot me down but I have been really surprised at the lack of practical skills in people who have passed the exams. That's not the fault of the new beekeepers. They do what is asked of them but they are just not taught or asked to demonstrate a lot of practical stuff. (Microscopy excepted!)
.

No, Jon, I won't shoot you down, I am equally appalled at the concentration on pure theory. I have argued that the Senior cycle of the Irish exams should be one part in a year with the microscopy section last.
There have been arguments in Congress that changed the exam dates so that they would be taken as soon a possible after the various courses ended so that the candidates would still have the facts clearly in their memories I call that learning by rote.
The microscopy exam became more theoretical after I became one of the examiners, and I am proud of that achievement.

[Jon]

Phew! At least we wont fall out then.
Same as Gavin, I have never bothered much with the exam system as I cannot see much relevance to improving my beekeeping.
A few years ago I was interested in joining a senior study group but was told I would have to take preliminary and intermediate before I would be eligible so I was put off.
Times have changed since the arrival of google and knowing how to access the information you want is often more important than memorising facts.
The exams for me are like a timewarp back to GCSE biology in the 1970s where you had to memorise and draw diagrams of cells or alveolii or nephrons!

I think that the exams are totally devalued when you have beekeepers qualified at a senior level who cannot do basic practical beekeeping.
What is absent in many cases is the ability to read the colony - a topic covered by Dan Basterfield at Greenmount recently.