Will your bees attempt to swarm in May

[fatshark]

To control swarming I now just separate the queen from the queen cells, leave only one queen cell in a queenless box, and keep it that way by removing extra cells made later. Doesn't matter whether the flying bees are with the old queen or with the queen cells.

Interesting how different people adopt different methods. I used to do it just like this but increasingly do a vertical split as it allows me to re-unite more easily in the future. I often also knock off all the cells at first, then check again and leave one unsealed charged one. That way I'm pretty sure they started it from a young larva.

Nice swarm - as defined by the fact they're calm and already piling in the pollen - arrived in a bait hive today

[gavin]

Nice swarm - as defined by the fact they're calm and already piling in the pollen - arrived in a bait hive today

I have a box of total bitches just over the hill from you and wondered if maybe you'd inherited them. A box of midrib perforating nasty, explosive [bleeps]. No queen cells today though so you're safe but I hate to think what the colony's drones will be up to. However today I swapped boxes with an apparently queenless small colony now with a protected cell, returned the supers to the original site, split the double brood onto two separate stands and after dispatching the queen added protected cells in each. Might work, but I'd best check them in a few days for more emergency queen cells of their own line.

Great discussion on Snelgrove II, thanks. You've got me thinking, perhaps I'll try it.

[Adam]

Great discussion on Snelgrove II, thanks. You've got me thinking, perhaps I'll try it.

I've never tried it either. (I do have Snelgroves book which I remember was not a particularly fun read).

[fatshark]

Splits ... weight can be an issue particularly if there are supers involved as well. To my considerable surprise I've got four supers (though in fairness, one has only just been added) on the queenright half of a colony I Pagden'd much earlier in the month. I'm hoping to find the new laying Q in the other 'half' tomorrow. It was a very prolific colony from early season and I'm pleased I did a classic artificial swarm, rather than use a split board.

Bad tempered girls ... definitely not the ones I got this time. If they arrive I'll be returning them pronto. Look out for a red Paynes 8 frame nuc box with a biohazard sticker arriving in your apiary

[Thymallus]

Splits ... weight can be an issue particularly if there are supers involved as well. )

It's a very pleasant issue to have.
Amount of hive stands can be a determining point as to whether you "Pagden" or "Snelgrove". I've just had to turn a Snelgrove into a pagden as this was on a field of OSR now gone over.....so the top half + queen is now in my garden with a Snelgrove floor....and the bottom half plus a queen cell from my breeder queen plus three supers (now empty as cleared full ones) is now residing in an out apiary where a field of OSR just came into flower last week.

[gavin]

To my considerable surprise I've got four supers (though in fairness, one has only just been added) on the queenright half of a colony I Pagden'd much earlier in the month.

Anyone have a view on whether splits with the old queen gather honey better than equivalent splits with queen cells?

[mbc]

Anyone have a view on whether splits with the old queen gather honey better than equivalent splits with queen cells?

Hell of a question Gavin!
At the beginning of a honey flow if you remove or cage the queen you can harvest more honey than in an equivalent hive left queen right, however, the colony is then spent until it gets through another cycle of brood rearing
A colony intent on swarming but split leaving the old queen some brood and the flyers can go two ways, either behave as if it's swarmed and work like stingo bringing in lots of honey, or still have swarming on the "hive" mind and be in a passive lethargic waiting mood refusing to put much weight on foraging.
A split with the foragers, brood and queen cells tends to not pile on weight until the new queen gets going.
(All in my opinion/experience of course and subject to the usual caveats; locality, bees and beekeepers perception all vary)

[fatshark]

I usually set up my vertical splits so that any supers are with the most populated box. I reverse the boxes after a week, trim down to one QC in the queenless box and rearrange the supers for the reorientating flyers.
However, I've been known to (regularly ) get it completely wrong.

Like mbc says ... I've certainly notices that queenless boxes pile the honey in, though disappointingly I think they often preferentially fill the brood frames first.

[gavin]

Thanks guys. This is something I don't think I've thought about before and don't recall seeing discussed anywhere.

Hell of a question Gavin!

Maybe, but hell of an answer!

What I've been noticing recently - in this long, continuously decent spring, fits your observations well, mbc. Some colonies (with queen cells) I thought might put their little feet on the gas pedal regarding honey collection (especially being relieved of the burden of feeding young brood) instead are going a bit listless. Some just passive and some passive-aggressive . That was the dogma in my head and was what I was expecting, that numbers of foragers minus the demand for brood rearing gives the surplus available for storage. The hive numbers were too few and the thoughts too recent to be worth offering, hence the question.

So is the Pagden-type split (side to side or vertically) the ideal one for maximising honey production?

Haven't tried removing or caging queens at the start of a honey flow, but I'm mostly taking out queens in colonies that are making queen cells. Yes, there is usually honey already coming into the brood nest before I do this as the queen's laying reduces but after the split things seem to go quieter. All very casual though - I shouldn't even suggest this without actually weighing colonies. Maybe someone with hive scales has proper data.

C4U might have a view but is currently trying to do the work of about 73 strapping Polish lads so maybe that's one for the quieter months. He does give the box with the old queen the flyers I think in the vertical split system he uses.

Maybe they 'know' they have to preserve themselves for the brood rearing tasks ahead rather than beat themselves to death stashing in a huge crop for the future of the colony. It is always nice to rationalise these things even when my own observations are definitely built on sand.

[Thymallus]

Anyone have a view on whether splits with the old queen gather honey better than equivalent splits with queen cells?

Funny you should ask that. I was pondering same yesterday whilst removing three super's full of honey from a queenless double brood hive waiting for a virgin to emerge (Queen was put in nuc as swarm control here) and then removed another three supers from a split where the Q+ side is on the bottom and the Q- is Snelgroved on top....and I haven't let any of the top fliers back. If anything the later colony was the smaller as only on single brood box.

I know that some use a three frame queen cage to restrict the queen's laying when there is a flow on...meaning that the workforce can concentrate on honey rather than waste time and energy brood rearing. I've heard of people who supposedly take queenless hives to the heather as they reckon better yield (although I suspect this may be a bit of fiction).

What I do know is bigger colonies give bigger yields given the rub of the green. Although I have had large colonies that gave disappointing yields in comparison to others of similar size. I was reading seem stuff on high vs low pollen gatherers. Turns out the high pollen gatherers are poor honey collectors in comparison to the low pollen gatherers. Makes sense that honey collection is something that can be selected for.