Co-op Imports New Zealand Bees

[Jon]

Try and buy an AMM queen. Go on... try. I have.

How many do you want?

[drumgerry]

Sorry 40% winter losses? Don't mean to be rude but you must have been doing something wrong. There's no earthly reason most colonies can't be kept alive with sufficient stores, a bit of fondant on top of the cluster to prevent isolation starvation and proper varroa treatment. I winter my native-ish bees in a harsher climate than most of Aberdeenshire and didn't lose any colonies this year and a single one last winter ( the winter that never ended till May)

And as for AMM queens Jon sells them as does Andrew Abrahams.

Climate wise Speyside and the Black Isle are different worlds.

[Jon]

From the NIHBS website

native queen and nuc suppliers

[mbc]

but I bought in from all over

Slightly missing the point of trying to improve locally adapted native bees.

[prakel]

If AMM were bred abroad then imported it would solve the Gorgon knot if non supply.

They are, French types from Greece (yeah, I know you weren't too impressed when you tried them) and packages from France; at least one bee farmer brought a truck full of these packages in last year and was, as I understood things, planning on more this year but a comment he made on the internet a little while back makes me think that he may now be a Ligustica convert.

And that is the major issue. Try and buy an AMM queen. Go on... try. I have. Why am I now using Carnies? I cannot buy AMM. It is that simple. It is frankly not my choice it is what is available.

I don't understand this at all. if your experience of amm is one of dodgy temperament and 40% winter losses as standard why on earth would you not wish to stay with well bred carnica if as you say there's no one else being affected by your actions? You can do a lot worse than good carnica -and it sounds like you have.

Moving on. AMM is not a great winterer. Sorry to prick your bubble but my death rates were on average 40% and as I was comitted to keeping a certain number of colonies I had to buy in. I was in a job at the time which paid well so it was not a disaster but it taught me a serious lesson... they winter ish... And Bernard found the same in reality. Argue if you like but back then that was the position.

I'd seriously love to hear more of this. Why do you think they were failing to survive in their natural environment? Were these stats of annual 40% losses being shared by your friends in the bee farmers club?

[Poly Hive]

All over as in all over Aberdeenshire. I found the death rate was due mainly to damp. As I moved over to poly that improved considerably. The more insulation they had the better they did.

I wanted to buy AMM as over all I liked them and I was bought in to the AMM ethos but then I was stymied so went the Carnica route as I have already said (and god knows why I am justifying here) there are no others in the area to affect. Further to that there are so many types of bee in England or so my reading suggests that it makes no odds.

PH

[gavin]

Sorry 40% winter losses? Don't mean to be rude but you must have been doing something wrong. There's no earthly reason most colonies can't be kept alive with sufficient stores, a bit of fondant on top of the cluster to prevent isolation starvation and proper varroa treatment.

I thought that losses in the 2012-2013 winter (when the BFA and others thought the sky was falling in) were about 30%? Our little local survey also had losses at 30% but they split to 50% of nuc-sized colonies and 20% of bigger colonies*, in that really difficult year. This year losses will be much less and at this point I might guess 10%. These are the local mixed-up, messed-up Amm-leaning mongrels. Selected stocks from Bernard Mobus must surely have had even better survival when properly managed. And this is in the age of Varroa ....

*largely in wood locally. Yes, survival in poly is often better, but well managed colonies in wood usually survive well.

.... so went the Carnica route as I have already said (and god knows why I am justifying here) ....

The heading of this sub-forum might give you a clue as to why you are being challenged on your enthusiasm for carnies!

[drumgerry]

That winter our local losses were probably less than the 30% Gavin - certainly there was no beemageddon as has been suggested elsewhere. Personally my losses were far less. I remain convinced that many winter losses are the result of management issues. That little thing that I do with the block of fondant on the top bars above the cluster has practically ended any problems with isolation starvation. I see it as a bridge for the bees between areas of stores. Dampness? No reason for that nowadays with open mesh floors - in either open or closed position there's plenty of ventilation.

As to poly survival rates I'm not seeing much difference between my wooden units and them and I have approximately half in each.

PH you revived a year dead thread with a long post extolling the virtues of carnies in the "Native Bees" area of the forum - perhaps that's why you're being taken to task. Yours was the sort of post that'll have beginners thinking they'd like to try carnies and it's important that a counter argument be put forth by those of us who disagree. You've already said that the NZ carnies are on the Black Isle. I know they're elsewhere in large numbers in Scotland thanks to a certain bee farmer. All of which puts a spanner in the works of anyone who wants to keep native bees in those areas.

[prakel]

(and god knows why I am justifying here)

Just to be clear, I'm not asking you to justify anything, more a case of asking you to clarify your preference.

I know only too well that challenging people to justify personal preferences in a forum environment never leads to a pleasant exchange -I remember when (elsewhere) people without my bees or location got really upset with my choice of dadant hives. The nonsense they wrote based on experience in different localities with different bees was astounding. Little did I realize back then how lucky I am to have never experienced the level of losses that some others seem to suffer (doubly so, using hives which are totally unsuitable for use in the UK )

[mbc]

Further to that there are so many types of bee in England or so my reading suggests that it makes no odds.

It would be ever so easy for anyone to find something to read that quietens their conscience when they've made the decision to forego the hard path*, after all, the grass is always greener to some folk and its not exactly difficult to splash some cash and benefit from someone else's breeding efforts. Perhaps one shouldn't publicly crow about how clever ones been sourcing foreign bees if one wishes to be taken seriously on an informed bee forum, I think its called "flaming", or is it "trolling"? A short term, unsustainable quick fix is still just that, no matter what someone else has written to justify their own position.
FYI there is a very active East Midlands BIBBA breeding group.

*The hard path in this instance refers to working with the existing bees in an area to stabalise the population and to steadily improve them in cooperation with others.