Video lecture about risk profile of neonicotinoid insecticides

[Jon]

Hi All
Does all this prose above detract from, or excuse the fact that 11 500 honey bee colonies were killed..

Not at all. I hope those responsible were made to pay for it.

planting machines, which had been demonstrated to have ‘fatal’ flaws, five full years before the German catastrophe occurred?

I take it you are now proposing a ban on motor vehicles then. The dangers have been known for years.

Perhaps a rationale of well regulated, moderate application of pesticide substances, based on proven need of application instead of the ”hard sell” by the multi’s sales' forces, whose only consideration is “the more we sell the bigger our profits” – and who gives a damn about the long term consequences anyway?

Eric, that is gibberish.

[Stromnessbees]

I never thought the day would come, but here we go ... I am questioning the banning of a pesticide:

An old fashioned, effective and rather harmless pesticide is to be removed from the international market.
Why?

It seems that the big corporations would rather see the sale of their products than of those that countries like India can produce cheaply themselves.

http://whybanendosulfan.org/why-ban-endosulfan.htm

from that site:

Endosulfan.jpg

[gavin]

Well, there's a first! An NGO (or is it a private individual) running an internet campaign to *keep* a pesticide, and Doris joining in. I'll have to go for a lie down.

Is it the corporation-bashing that is important to people or is it mostly a worry about chemicals per se?

[Jon]

There is a thread running on beesource on the same pesticide.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...ighlight=india

[Stromnessbees]

The data that I quoted were from Punjab Agricultural University, so I hope that they can be trusted.

It does make me more than a bit suspicous if a company (in this case Bayer) sells a product for 50 years with nobody batting an eyelid; and when there is no more money to be made form it and it is in competition with more profitable pesticides it suddenly is found to be highly toxic.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiati...oshi-pesticide

... multinational pesticide companies, which championed Endosulphan for many decades, have developed newer molecules which offer better margins for them. So they are making attempts to have Endosulphan banned everywhere so that they can push the more profitable products...

... various expert committees, including the Dubey committee and the Mahi committee appointed by the central government, have concluded that there is no established causal relationship between Endosufan and these health issues.

Union agriculture minister Sharad Pawar also has made a statement in the house, during the recent session of the Lok Sabha, that there is no evidence of Endosulfan having caused any health problems and India will support use of the pesticide...

... and just in case anybody wonders: No, I am not sponsored by the Indian Government or anybody else for posting here.

[Eric McArthur]

Hi All
Doris has a valid point regarding the “rock and a hard place” for Indian farmers relative to the economics of Endosulfan – if the health hazards are as the Indian authorities state, viz: http://whybanendosulfan.org/why-ban-endosulfan.htm - then the moral issue has also been answered relative to the use of this pesticide.
If Monsanto et al win the day and endosulfan is banned and Indian farmers are bankrupted; do the banning authorities then take the moral high ground and postulate much damage to health has been avoided – against a background of massive death due to farmer suicide and starvation of an already impoverished rural population?
I would hazard that morality and concern for the health and prosperity of India has little to do with the present move to rid the world of “nasties”, which make endosulfan look like asprin – viz-“... under Codex Alimentarius , which is sponsored by the BIG MULTI “Seven of the following nine chemicals have been reinstated for use; hexachlorobenzine, toxaphen, aldrin, dieldrin, pentachlorophenol, endrin and mirex”. These POPs (Persistent Organic Pollutants) number among the most dangerous substances known - to human health! Who is kidding who in this endosulfan smokescreen?
India’s agricultural economy has been attacked and devastated before by us, the European Union. Many years ago the EU decided to become self sufficient in vegetable oil, which was a major export commodity product of India, which incidentally was much more suited to the cultivation of such crops. The morality of this decision was highly questionable – but morality will not be found in the dictionaries used by big business or hard-nosed government.
So where does the phantasy end and the reality begin?
BIG CHEM might just be shooting itself in the foot; after they have bought out the ruined peasant farmers and commenced applying their neonicotinoids to their GM crops. If the arthropods and nectar feeding insects, along with other soil dwelling organisms begin to die off – the massive experiment which is going on in the developed world agriculture will thus be able to reach the unequivocal conclusion that the neonicotinoids are indeed the culprit for our present inexplicable arthropod “die – off” miseries. Where do we go then – another War (Peace!)Crimes Tribunal to put the pro neonicotinoid brigade behind bars and then just throw the cell keys away?
Damn good idea!

Eric

[Jon]

In case anyone hasn't noticed, there appears to be a campaign launched by Indian chemical companies to retain production of this product. In the last 48 hours new posters have started discussions on Beesource, beekeepingforum, and doubtless other ones as well.

it suddenly is found to be highly toxic.

I don't think that is true Doris. They have been phasing it out worldwide for over ten years.

I suspect there may well be a motive to squeeze out the Indian producers of this pesticide but it really is toxic stuff, both to bees and to people. There have been hundreds of deaths associated with this product in both India and Africa.

There is even a victim support group - http://www.endosulphanvictims.org/

A study by Thanal, a public interest research, advocacy, education and action trust here, showed that honeybees had been affected and almost wiped out in the Endosufan-sprayed areas of Kasaragod district. It affected the tribal community of Koragas, most of whom used to collect honey from the forests, and traditional organised beekeepers. Many keepers had witnessed mass kill of bees following spraying of Endosulfan by the State-owned Plantation Corporation of Kerala.

http://www.hindu.com/2011/01/23/stor...2358860400.htm

This is what I mean with regard to a vote against neonicotinoids is a vote to bring back toxic crap like this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endosulfan

Do some research folks. The mania to do down Bayer is making some people take leave of their senses. I don't doubt for a minute that Bayer has other more profitable products in the pipeline to replace this one but do you really want to keep it?
Al least the neonicotinoids have low toxicity towards people. Think of the poor agricultural workers who have to spray pesticides under 3rd world conditions.
You are now campaining for the right of Indian Chemical companies to expose the poorest people in india and Africa to these toxins. Bizarre.

[gavin]

Fascinating exchange folks. Amazing the pickles folk get into when they try to take sides and muddle up anti-corporate campaigning with actual, documented safety data.

Here's a thought. Imidicloprid is now out of patent and there are companies out there who have and maybe are synthesising it outwith Bayer's control. Bayer sued one company before their patent ran out. So, given its open-market status and it well-documented safety to man, should we now be starting an internet campaign to support its sale and use?! Bayer have moved on to newer neonicotinoids, some of which seem safer for bees, but they have lost control of this one.

I wouldn't of course - there are issues with environmental contamination.

Also interesting to read Wikipedia on the poison:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imidacloprid

An advert for how misleading Wikipedia can be, I think. If you tried to correct some of that misinformation how long would your edits last I wonder?

Gavin

[Neils]

Fascinating is putting it mildly.

When it seems to boil down to which shills can shout the loudest, how can you possibly decide without having to do some research?

How can imidicloprid be out of patent? It's only just on the table as needing to be banned as the root of all evil.

[gavin]

Half of China seems to be involved in its manufacture.

http://www.made-in-china.com/product...dacloprid.html