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Thread: Scottish Government report on the 'Restocking Options' study

  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by drumgerry View Post
    As to beekeeping's benefit to the economy I think you're right to say the commercial sector dominates in terms of the honey market. What hasn't been quantified is what benefit we "amateurs" are to the Scottish economy. I think it could be added up and will be a significant amount. I think to prioritise commercial or amateur is a mistake - solutions need to be about both sectors.

    I agree completely on professionalism and the something for nothing culture of beekeepers. It relies too heavily on the goodwill of particular individuals. Goodwill that can rapidly evaporate where people take you for a mug.
    Oh I don't underestimate certain aspects of benefit that flow from the amateur sector.

    A classic case would be casual or natural world pollinators. Scotland would not be exactly as it is today with no honeybees around, and when you are away up little valleys, or in urban areas, or the dripping wet west, commercial beekeepers are as scarce as the proverbial hens teeth. Because it does not pay.

    The pollination of the hawthorns and all manner of fruit and seed bearing plants, far from an commercial hives, depends heavily on amateur beekeepers in tandem with other pollinators. That this has no economic benefit is untrue, its part of the natural well being of the country, and that has a value. In a document prepared some years ago in response to the EFB crisis this value was considered and a vague figure put on it. Its not just here either. I am friendly with a significant beekeeper in the Rhone valley, and last time we spoke he received 15 euros per hive per year to support his bees, just for their value to the ecosystem.

    Then there is the appliance trade. The UK trade is very heavily dependant on the amateur sector as you are where the really big margins lie. You pay very high prices here, even for seconds, and without you there would be less employment.

    However the major measurable economic gains come from honey trading. I have 8 households total dependant on our production. Other bee farms will add quite a few more to that. That's the direct wages aspect. We spend in the environs of 300K per year, much of it locally. The honey goes on to a packer, where 350K of honey generates more activity and goes out from there as a 500K business, and finally at retail it is a 1M turnover activity...probably a little more actually, and that money goes into peoples wages all the way through the system. Add in the other bee farms and you can see this is actually getting to the point of being a minor but important and iconic section of the Scottish economy.

    Then there is the unmeasurable but real pollination uplift to crops. That probably is a lot more than the honey value. Even grouse moors benefit. Several gamekeepers have told me that a moor that gets honeybees on it each year sets more seed which is more winter food for the grouse which in turn means more healthy grouse on the moor. More grouse equals more value of the land.

    Value is all around us and is not the exclusive preserve of the professional.


    As for the beekeepers finding other work? Well both sectors have upper and lower extremes in them. Larger beekeepers who cannot do the job tend to fail by natural cull (financially of course), but it is undeniable that there is a wide spectrum of abilities, levels of interest, and competence across the professional sector. The worst tend to fall by the wayside.

    Economic pressure to succeed is less significant, even absent, in the amateur sector. The very best and the very worst of beekeepers are to be found there, and also the best and worst presented honey. When time becomes valueless and the honey is only sold in small amounts if at all, it then no longer matters how much or how little effort is put into the presentation of the finished product.

    Irrespective of competence or diligence, this is not an easy field to make a satisfactory living in. I have always thought the boundaries between the sectors are pretty blurred, especially in the 20 to 50 hive range, but outwith that too, and there is some movement of people between the two. The close relationship that developed between the SBA and the BFA in Scotland after the EFB outbreak is one of the best things to come out of it, and long may it continue. We are at our best supporting eachother.

    The credit mostly falls to Phil McAnespie and John Mellis for that.
    Last edited by Calluna4u; 04-04-2016 at 10:55 PM.

  2. #82
    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    There are some cracking posts on here tonight! Nice to see the tolerance and understanding from such different vantage points.

  3. #83

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    I couldn't agree more that we are at our best supporting each other C4U. My sincere hope is that we can find ways to improve things for us all.

    I wonder if by making some marketing capital out of our premium product - heather honey - in the same way that the NZ honey industry has done for Manuka (to my mind disgusting stuff!) margins could be improved for commercial and small scale beekeepers alike. Obviously not in the same ball park as you but my OH markets our Speyside heather honey to her Facebook friends and we get a great price for it - we send it all over the UK and have sent a few pots abroad.

    And in purely economic terms isn't there a marketing trick to be had from the use of native bees in the production of such a premium honey? Apart from the low carbon miles of using Scottish bees people who buy our honey don't want to be told that we imported our bees from Italy or elsewhere. They want Scottish honey from Scottish bees.

    I live in Speyside, the location of one of if not THE most successful Scottish industry currently operating - whisky. They have not missed a single marketing trick with their product and they sell it at premium prices the world over. I'd argue that Speyside or Perthshire or Tweeddale or anywhere else's heather honey is as premium a product as anything the whisky industry can produce. But I don't see the honey producers marketing the stuff as creatively as it could be.

    Of course the whisky industry is a multi-billion pound industry with ambassadors in many countries to promote it. It's also a product with its standards enshrined in law. Maybe it's time to have Scottish heather honey similarly protected? Maybe it's time that Scotgov gave the honey industry some of the support they give the whisky industry.

    At the end of the day perhaps I do have a Utopian view of things but unless you fling some ideas around you might not come up with the ones that will actually work.

    PS - don't get me started on managed heather moors. I live in between a number of large estates and to my mind all they do is manage their land for the benefit of themselves and their tweed-clad chinless mates. Come the revolution......!
    Last edited by drumgerry; 05-04-2016 at 12:03 AM.

  4. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greengage View Post
    Another point I noticed I have met no bee keepers between the ages of 18 and 40
    I'm a young 37... but you're right, I think I maybe the youngest in my Assoc. We need to look at why very few young'uns take up beekeeping unless I suspect a parent keeps bees. I would suggest in the next 20 years we will have a major brain drain of experience as father time takes his toll.

    Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

  5. #85

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    Must have nodded off there look at the time
    Its odd that bees would be less available in late Summer
    Wouldn't argue with the mainstream on that they must be right
    But aren't those early nucs responsible for most of the bee imports into UK
    That's the impression I get since its apparently not viable to overwinter nucs on a commercial basis
    And its not possible to supply complete hives later in the year
    That must mean we have to import packages and queens etc from warmer climes
    Theres nothing else for it
    Off back to the land of nod or dreamland as its been described

  6. #86
    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    GG, I've put your post in the 'Native Honey Bees' area. Probably should also have moved some of DR's posts earlier.

    Al, there are a few new bee farmers on the horizon, I can think of 6 intending to go that way in Scotland. Some of them are clearly under 40, certainly three of the serious contenders are. All good for the health of bee farming in Scotland. But yes, the majority of new entrants to the craft as hobbyists are older. Not the overwhelming majority, I'd say our beginners class is about 65:35 over:under 40 (rough guess, never stopped to think about it at the time).

    Quote Originally Posted by The Drone Ranger View Post
    But aren't those early nucs responsible for most of the bee imports into UK
    That's the impression I get since its apparently not viable to overwinter nucs on a commercial basis
    And its not possible to supply complete hives later in the year
    That must mean we have to import packages and queens etc from warmer climes
    Theres nothing else for it
    Off back to the land of nod or dreamland as its been described
    This is back to a key argument, thanks. Overwintering nucs for the spring empty boxes or for sale. If you do this well and overwinter strong units in polystyrene nucleus boxes, they overwinter really well. Almost as well as full boxes. It is possible to set them up in late summer and, with some care, build them to full units on six frames by the end of the season. It doesn't take a lot of work to do this with natural queen cells or you can make them with a queen of your own choice, either raised by yourself or bought in. You can even requeen late in the season a split made with the old queen as part of your swarm control. That uses some of those late season queens that we hear don't have a ready market.

    Saves you ordering packages for your empty spring boxes. Gives nuclei for sale. OK, there will be winters when losses are higher, but the report shows that there are bee farmers who report only 20% losses in the worse winters and most of the rest are in the 20-40% bracket instead in the worse winters. Easy to recover from that and if they were carrying their own nuclei, well made and well prepared for winter, then it is likely that even in a bad year over half of them would survive to repopulate empty boxes in spring. Proven yet young queens heading units ready to go exponential.

    All I'm saying is that there are ways of making things better, more sustainable, and that is a sensible direction to work towards. It has multiple benefits.

    Most of that above was written with commercial beekeepers in mind but it also applies to association apiaries.

  7. #87
    Senior Member prakel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gavin View Post
    Most of that above was written with commercial beekeepers in mind but it also applies to association apiaries.
    A well thought out post G. All I might add is that the model you're outlining is probably *more* suitable for the associations where volunteers are willing to shoulder the labour and absorb the extra cost. I've thought a lot about the overwintering idea -excellent for increasing our own stocks and also potentially easy sales if that's what you're after because there's already a growing culture which could be capitalized on in the amateur sector for overwintered nucs and queens (thankyou Mr Palmer for doing the initial leg work) BUT if we're being honest, there's got to be a surcharge for the extra work/risk/losses or there needs to be volunteer labour offered willingly to boost the association funds.

  8. #88
    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    On the question of paying for services such as training, I can see both sides. If there is an army of volunteers doing this because they want to, as a leisure activity, then charging a commercial rate isn't going to happen. There is a tradition amongst local associations of providing that service, so switching to a fully paid model will not happen easily. Currently our beginners get an exceptional bargain at £40 for four indoor and two outdoor sessions.

    As we must generate such a lot of business for Thorne perhaps they should be subsidising us. However there is a good diversity of suppliers now so I guess that would not work either.

    When I started there were few beginners and most received their first bees as a gift, a free swarm or a split. It was only as numbers grew and it became a significant drain on bee power and finance that we started charging for the bees. Time to review the price though.

  9. #89

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    Your right Gavin I do wander off
    Move those posts by all means and replace them with this

    It still makes little sense to me for all the beekeeping Associations to suggest that the best way to start beekeeping is to buy a nuc in Spring
    Then in the next breath they say how terrible it is that all the new beekeepers rush off to order an imported nuc online

    Every beekeeper will need a beehive so why not just buy one with bees in it

    p.s.
    Thornes are subsidising us
    If you buy your hives and stuff at the shop Brian will help keep you on track while you get through your first season or so
    Last edited by The Drone Ranger; 05-04-2016 at 10:05 AM.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by gavin View Post
    There are some cracking posts on here tonight! Nice to see the tolerance and understanding from such different vantage points.
    Agreed; I write as a small scale hobbyist and supporter of the native bee in Ireland and it was a pleasant surprise to see this issue discussed without the usual sneering and contempt found on most fora. Especial thanks to to C4u for his elucidation of the economic forces at work.

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