Top bar hives

[prakel]

As a current enthusiast for wild comb, I'm intrigued - what's brought you back to using foundation, and are you going to give up wild comb completely?

A few things. There's a high cost involved in running colonies on natural comb. I've read plenty of clear cut statements about bees building natural comb quicker than they pull foundation out, well, I've got a real time comparison going on at the moment and there's absolutely no doubt that they're choosing the foundation in preference to the empty frames and, when they do get to working both together they complete the foundation sooner.

The Beekeeper's Quarterly reprinted an article by Murray McGreggor a few years ago (was originally a post on Bee-L I believe) where he went into some detail regards "Drawn Comb, Foundation or Starter Strips -which method gives the best honey yields?". BKQ No 94 Dec 2008. Good reading.

There's also a pdf Low Cost Foundation by by K S Aidoo and R J Paxton. which comes to a similar conclusion that's well worth reading:
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...t7udhSnQ5DKJlA

Another cost is that of keeping way too many drones on the wing. Once a colony is established on natural comb it seems to produce drones beyond it's needs. Why this is I really couldn't say. 20% drone comb in natural nests is the figure normally touted as 'right'. 20% allows for a lot of drones in a modified dadant hive. I've not measured the comb (edit: for drone cell percentage although I may now do so as I pull the old combs) or counted the bodies but I can see quite clearly that there are too many for my liking. There's a suggestion that quality surpasses quantity, again, I don't know if this is right but it makes a lot of sense to me.

My use of natural comb started as an enforced money saving strategy, I don't regret the experience one bit as it's certainly opened my eyes to a few things and yes, I will still use some natural comb although I doubt that it'll have a prominent place in our main hives. I do have a few ideas which I'd like to play around with, but that's for the future. What should be remembered though is that in my opinion I would be a lot further forward than I am if I'd had regular access to foundation.

None of this should be read to mean that I think natural comb colonies don't have a place in beekeeping it's just not the right way forward for myself.

[Jon]

I tend to put a couple of drone combs in every hive to try and stop them drawing drone cells wherever there is a little gap.
I take your point though Prakel as they often draw drone comb when I was hoping they would draw worker cells.
It's all about timing and how many drones they already have. I am still trying to get a handle on the cell size they draw with natural comb.

[prakel]

5.1mm was the smallest mine ever got to -measured on the three lines to try and get a more accurate reading than the common measurement across one line of cells. I'm no fan of the 'small bees are better' school of thought -I prefer the heavyweights motto...'a good big one beats a good little one'.

I suppose I'll have to increase the varroa treatments now that I'm using foundation again.

[Jon]

I suppose I'll have to increase the varroa treatments now that I'm using foundation again.

Michael Bush will be watching over you!

[prakel]

Michael Bush will be watching over you!

Don't forget the British Mike B'. I rate them as highly as each other.

[Jon]

The British Mike B is not a small cell devotee though, more of a prolific swarm catcher.

[Emma]

I suppose I'll have to increase the varroa treatments now that I'm using foundation again.

Are you serious, or joking? So far I've found Michael Bush's advice on managing longhives, managing wild comb, and comb guides really good. I'm planning to try wild comb nests for at least a couple of years (or should that be, a couple of complete changes of comb?) to find out whether I can replicate his reports of reduced varroa numbers with smaller cells,
but I was pretty much assuming it was too much to hope for.
Generally speaking, I try not to believe miracle bee health claims made about natural comb. Witness today's news - really, really sorry to hear that, madasafish.

[prakel]

The British Mike B is not a small cell devotee though

But he's very experienced at rescuing stray bees on natural comb; wacking them in a box and then farming them out on pollination contracts -without any loss of resistance.

...but I don't want to just keep bees as pets forever, I want them to make a contribution to the local (human) food supply, so I'll have to face the wax/efficiency question someday. Good to have those reference s, thanks. I'm really interested in the idea of using plain sheets of wax - don't think I've heard of that one before. That would answer one of the things I'm looking for, which is to let the bees choose their own size of cells. An experiment for next season, maybe...

This is where choices need to be made. Nothing at all wrong with not wanting honey from your bees if you're more interested in other aspects of their life cycle but equally, there's no shame in wanting to take a harvest from them.

There's a thread on this forum about blank foundation sheets started by mellifera crofter: Wax

Are you serious, or joking? So far I've found Michael Bush's advice on managing longhives, managing wild comb, and comb guides really good. I'm planning to try wild comb nests for at least a couple of years (or should that be, a couple of complete changes of comb?) to find out whether I can replicate his reports of reduced varroa numbers with smaller cells,
but I was pretty much assuming it was too much to hope for.
Generally speaking, I try not to believe miracle bee health claims made about natural comb.

Tongue in cheek might be a good description of my comment. MB's site has got some interesting ideas, the section containing transcripts of old books by different authors, which he's made freely available, is especially good. Not sure off the top of my head what his experience with horizontal top-bar hives is but if I was wanting to learn about them I'd be looking towards Wyatt Mangum's site as a primary online reference:

200 Top-Bar Hives: The Low-Cost Sustainable Way

Witness today's news - really, really sorry to hear that, madasafish.

Equally. I hope that you can get on top of the situation locally before more damage is done.

[Emma]

There's a thread on this forum about blank foundation sheets started by mellifera crofter: Wax

Fantastic thread, thanks for pointing it out.

MB's site has got some interesting ideas... Not sure off the top of my head what his experience with horizontal top-bar hives is...

Michael Bush makes a really nice analysis of the advantages (in his view) of wild comb in stacks of framed boxes vs framed longhives vs topbar longhives. For him, the only reason for preferring topbar to a framed longhive is cost & ease of construction. He's very positive about longhives.

...but if I was wanting to learn about them I'd be looking towards Wyatt Mangum's site as a primary online reference:
200 Top-Bar Hives: The Low-Cost Sustainable Way

Ironically, what puts me off Wyatt Magnum's book is the cost! It's nice to be reminded of his site, though. He's great on bee trash :-) I'll buy the book when I'm sure I have time to read it. My other misgiving is over his hive design. It speaks to me of reliably hot summers, and straightforwardly cold winters, and not a lot in the way of high winds or horizontal rain. That means I'd need a different hive design to his, and that some of his management ideas just might not work here.

[madasafish]

But he's very experienced at rescuing stray bees on natural comb; wacking them in a box and then farming them out on pollination contracts -without any loss of resistance.



This is where choices need to be made. Nothing at all wrong with not wanting honey from your bees if you're more interested in other aspects of their life cycle but equally, there's no shame in wanting to take a harvest from them.

There's a thread on this forum about blank foundation sheets started by mellifera crofter: Wax



Tongue in cheek might be a good description of my comment. MB's site has got some interesting ideas, the section containing transcripts of old books by different authors, which he's made freely available, is especially good. Not sure off the top of my head what his experience with horizontal top-bar hives is but if I was wanting to learn about them I'd be looking towards Wyatt Mangum's site as a primary online reference:

200 Top-Bar Hives: The Low-Cost Sustainable Way




Equally. I hope that you can get on top of the situation locally before more damage is done.

Thanks..