Time to start this one off!

[gavin]

The big thing about Warres is that you can't inspect comb. I've been spending time going around telling people to look at their comb very carefully for obvious reasons, and I'm hoping that we will all be getting to know our bee inspectors soon if we don't know them already.

The Warre enthusiasts say not to worry, our way of beekeeping gives you healthy bees which never come down with foulbrood. We've no way of knowing if that is true or not and I don't think that they do either. Even if it gives the bees some advantages I doubt that it will make them immune to disease - just almost immune to having that disease spotted.

I once tried natural drawn comb (from a 5.1mm Thornes small cell starter strip) in National frames. I don't think that it made much difference. The main thing I was hoping for was a degree of Varroa tolerance but there was no sign of that.

The 'natural beekeeping' tag is a powerful one, but just how natural is keeping bees in a wooden cradle with moveable wooden strips for the bees to build comb from? The Warre (and similar vertical designs, including the Scottish Stewarton) seem a more natural shape mimicing the hollow tree that you'd naturally find bees in, but then a National, Smith, Commercial, Wormit, Langstroth does that for you too and allows you to manage your bees sensibly ...

Despite all that I may try a TBH one day. I'll not expect too much from it though.

[Stromnessbees]

I once tried natural drawn comb (from a 5.1mm Thornes small cell starter strip) in National frames. I don't think that it made much difference. The main thing I was hoping for was a degree of Varroa tolerance but there was no sign of that.

Hi Gavin

Your mini-trial with natural cells for varroa resistance couldn't show quick results, as you were starting with big bees which will most likely build rather big cells, as they base their cell size on their own dimensions. In order to get them to build smaller cells you might have to have several generations of bees building cells which gradually reduce in size.

It would be great if we could try these things out, but resources (bees) are in very short supply and it would be a shame to lose colonies through experimmenting with them.

But we can browse around and see what others are up to, like Michael Bush: http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm, I find his site very inspiring.

Doris

[Stromnessbees]

The Warre (and similar vertical designs, including the Scottish Stewarton) seem a more natural shape mimicing the hollow tree that you'd naturally find bees in, but then a National, Smith, Commercial, Wormit, Langstroth does that for you too and allows you to manage your bees sensibly ...

The Stewarton hive has been metioned a few times already, but I can't imagine what it looks like. Does anybody have a picture of one?

Cheers, Doris

[gavin]

Octagonal%20Beehive..jpg

http://www.stewarton.org/History/oct...Bee%20Hive.htm

[Stromnessbees]

Wow, Gavin, that was quick!

Does anybody use such a thing nowadays?

Doris

[gavin]

Ben Bellamy said that someone was selling them (for £5k perhaps?), and so I passed this news on to a local group that are thinking of making hives in case they want to try their hand at Stewartons.

G.

[POPZ]

Back from the wild north to see I have been missing out on lots of chat here. Interesting stuff, particularly the Stewarton. Never heard of it before, but obviously has worked well in the past - or is that sort of honey production a beexageration?

The 'natural beekeeping' tag is a powerful one, but just how natural is keeping bees in a wooden cradle with moveable wooden strips for the bees to build comb from? The Warre (and similar vertical designs, including the Scottish Stewarton) seem a more natural shape mimicing the hollow tree that you'd naturally find bees in, but then a National, Smith, Commercial, Wormit, Langstroth does that for you too and allows you to manage your bees sensibly ...Despite all that I may try a TBH one day. I'll not expect too much from it though.

Ok Gavin, I hear what you say about the natural way is to build in tree trunks vertically, but I believe they also build in fallen trees laterally. I wonder whether this is a case of man determining what is right or wrong rather than letting the subjects choose for themselves. TBH's are used with much success in many parts of the world, albeit kinder climates, but that has little to do with whether they build vertically or laterally.

I am getting rather boring here by trying to score a trite point, so will go out to the garage to complete another bait hive - tiddleypoops all.

[gavin]

And maybe I was point-scoring by pointing out that claims of being 'natural' are really rather shaky.

However the bees do prefer vertical rather than horizontal. If you give your 6 active frame brood box early spring colony three supers of foundation now you would find that they would instantly stop spreading outwards and move up instead to create a chimney of brood and stores up the middle. It makes sense to get them to fill their brood box first, and so there is a narrow period for the ideal timing of adding the first super as they approach the edge of the brood box but before they feel cramped.

Maybe in warmer places the tendency to work upwards is less?

best wishes

Gavin

[Stromnessbees]

I feel that by providing space above the broodnest we are creating an unnatural situation that the bees quickly remedy by filling it with comb. A wild colony would always start building at the top of the cavity and build downwards, there's never an empty space above their heads if left to their own devices. Thinking about it that way, the Warre has to be the most natural one, with 'supers' always added underneath the broodnest for expanding downwards. (I know they call them 'nadirs' instead of 'supers'.) (Still don't know how the Stewarton is managed.)

Warning:
Read the next bit only if you have had your tea already!

There's a rather macabre story which seems to be fitting into this thread:
During our Ghana-trip in January I heard about a taboo source of honey. It's honey from graves: Feral colonies can occupy the chest-cavity of corpses in shallow graves, possibly using the ribs as natural top bars.

... you have been warned,
Doris

[POPZ]

Doris. Love your story. I am sure I have heard of similar happenings with old animal carcases that have become overgrown and made excellent 'hives'. It seems that we have interesting ideas/theories regarding the TBH and similar 'natural' methods of beekeeping. I am sure that there is an element of truth in all systems, but I wonder which systems the bees themselves actually prefer?

This is why I wish to run different systems for myself and try and compare, over a period of time and under as similar conditions as possible, which is the most beneficial for the bees, rather than man.

So I do hope that there will be others willing to look at other forms of husbandry, and that we can compare notes. Less stress = less disease and hopefully happier ladies.