Here we go again!

[Eric McArthur]

Hi Jon

Jon wrote:
Re Oxalic pennies dropping and 1999, Varoa did not arrive in N Ireland until 2002
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The mite did not show up in the West Central belt until around the same time scale as your region. However, far-sighted beekeepers in the West of Scotland in 1999 were using the oxalic acid trickle method to confirm or deny that the European method was valid for the UK. At that time it was viewed as a prophylactic but proof was obtained from this early use that the bees could handle the acid without ill effects.
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Jon wrote:
Just noticed you already posted that 'long awaited' link over a week ago!
http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...ghlight=nosema
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Yes, It was moved to another site despite the current thread incurring a lot of interest!
It is pity. I seemed to be the only one to realise the significance of the “synergism” postulation. This research is the first to make the synergistic link between a honey bee pathogen and imidacloprid.
The French work was carried out as a “peer review”, to confirm the work discussed at Apimondia, 2009, in the van Engelsdorp/Pettis interview for the French TV documentary, “The Strange Disappearance of the Bees”, in which these two highly respected American apicultural scientists state that they carried out a similar feeding regime on whole colonies and the colony bees just dwindled away!

Jon, I am sorry to have to say this but your veneer of neutrality is slipping by the minute.
I’d have thought, if you understood the content of the paper you would have been “Over the Moon” at the break- through and advocated as I have done elsewhere, that this pioneering work requires to be extensively examined and if the link between the neonicotinoids and honeybee pathogens is further confirmed, that these substances be banned from agricultural practice world wide. The French have had a ban on imidacloprid since 2000.
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Jon wrote:
I hope you are not spamming.
We will need to ask Gav for one of those roundup ready threads if you are. http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...ghlight=nosema
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Putting links in your posts is "the real meaning of spamming in forum terms"
Jon, Bee my guest! Smacks more of “Bully beef”! You are picking on the wrong guy!
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[Jon]

Jon, I am sorry to have to say this but your veneer of neutrality is slipping by the minute.

My position is that I don't know what is behind bee problems and I am happy to look at all the evidence.
I am happy to state that pesticides may be involved.
Are you happy to state that pesticides may not be involved?
If not, then which of us is neutral and which isn't.

I think that study you linked to is interesting but it is a lab study rather than field data so until someone shows that this is happening in the field we are no further on.
Bear in mind this study by your mate Engelsdorp.

He found colonies full of pesticide residue but most of it was stuff put there by beekeepers as part of varroa control.
Check out table 9 and table 10 and report back on any neonicotinoids.

None of the pesticides detected in more than 20% of the samples in a given matrix was more prevalent in CCD apiaries than in control apiaries (Table 9). There were, however, higher levels of coumaphos in the wax of control apiaries than was detected in CCD apiaries (Wilcoxon rank sum test, P = 0.05, Table 9).

There were neither differences in the mean number of pesticides detected in the wax of CCD-affected colonies (5.92±0.84) compared to control colonies (5.67±0.84; χ2 = 0.001, P = 0.97) nor the number of detections in beebread (CCD: 5.09±0.71 vs. control: 5.14±1.14; χ2 = 0.038, P = 0.85), brood (CCD: 2.18±0.12 vs. control: 2.07±0.07; χ2 = 0.57, P = 0.44), or adult bees (CCD: 4.37±1.73 vs. control: 9.00±3.88; χ2 = 0.89, P = 0.34).

The thing is, you can demonstrate stuff in a lab such as poisoning a bee with guttation water containing imidacloprid via a pipette but this does not mean that bees are drinking guttation water containing imidacloprid and dying outside of the lab.

That's not really a contentious position.

[Eric McArthur]

Jon wrote:
Are you happy to state that pesticides may not be involved?
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Of course I am!
I am also a convinced atheist – but if some deity came to me in the middle of the day and told me that he could and would sort out, not only this vexed question of CCD, but on a lesser scale make the world a better place to live – I’d get my sword and sandals out of the thatch and follow him!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>
The van Engelsdorp et al work you quote is not relevant here! Ask Gavin for a squint at the Apimondia 2009, interview video and listen intently to what Pettis and van Engelsdorp say!

Regards
Eric

[Jon]

The van Engelsdorp et al work you quote is not relevant here!

On the contrary, it's very relevant as he looked at hundreds of ccd and non ccd colonies and the neonicotinoids were not showing up in wax, bee bread or bees themselves. Did you read it? That paper is probably the most important piece of bee disease research done in 2009.

I believe he is looking more closely at pesticide interactions again but I will wait for anything published before assuming anything.

[Eric McArthur]

Hi Jon
Eric wrote: “The van Engelsdorp et al work you quote is not relevant “here””!

Jon, ever the cherry picker, wrote: “On the contrary, it's very relevant..”
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The keyword here is “HERE”! I am referring to the van Engelsdorp interview in the Apimondia video. That is the subject matter on MY table! Gavin is your contact man! I am well aware of the multi author work!

Best regards

Eric

[Jon]

Awaiting Gavin's comments with baited breath assuming his dvd player is working. Both paper and dvd are 2009 so I imagine his views are more or less the same in each.

[Eric McArthur]

Hi Jon
Times up!
The papers in dispute may have been published in 2009. However the one you are anchored on was published in June 2009, the paper I am referring to was published in December 2009. It is virtually a peer review of the work done and discussed by van Engelsdorp and Pettis during the 2009 Apimondia interview, where they state that imidacloprid, which was below the traceable threshold, acts synergistically in colonies infected with Nosema Sp., and kills the bees. The French researchers got the same result!
Best regards
Eric

[Jon]

the paper I am referring to was published in December 2009. It is virtually a peer review of the work done and discussed by van Engelsdorp and Pettis during the 2009 Apimondia interview,

Are you talking about published research, DVDs, videos or something else.

If it is a paper, have you a link to it.
What on earth is 'virtually a peer review'

[Eric McArthur]

Hi Jon
I am referring to the Cedric Alaux et al paper, published in “Experimental Biology” in December 2009, which was referred to earlier in this thread and ignored. Viz: “Interactions between Nosema microspores and a neonicotinoid weaken honeybees (Apis mellifera)
Google that title and the science will be laid before you in all its glory!

The ‘Results’, page 2, right hand column of that paper states unequivocally:
“We demonstrated that the interaction between the microsporidia Nosema and a neonicotinoid (imidacloprid) significantly weakened honeybees. In the short term, the combination of both agents caused the highest individual mortality rates and energetic stress.
.............. This provides the first evidences that interaction between an infectious organism and a chemical can also threaten pollinators, interactions that are widely used to eliminate insect pests in integrative pest management.
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Eric. If you tripped in the snow you would blame it on pesticides!!!
Jon. Watch that snow!!

Regards

Eric

[Jon]

It wasn't ignored. I commented above that it was interesting and also that it is a lab study.
Every piece of research helps the understanding of what is obviously a very complicated picture.
Pesticides may play a part, but there again, they may not have a very significant role.
Imidacloprid was being used widely in the US 10 years before the first reported cases of CCD.