Honeybee races - nature or nurture?

**prakel** · 23-03-2015, 11:03 PM

I suppose, if we think about it, most of the behavioural characteristics which have been attributed to the different races were/are actually those of managed colonies.

It may only have been a very simplistic management but never the less, over a period of centuries it would have had a real bearing on the bees. A random example of old style management affecting the direction the bees take can be found in Dzierzon's 'Rational Beekeeping'.

Even the common black or grey German species may be divided into a honey-bee and a swarming bee. The latter, which is also called the Heath bee, in consequence of the management adopted, swarms continually ; and swarming has become quite a second nature with this bee, so much so, that even colonies with young queens of the first year make preparations for swarming and breed drones, which is never done by the honey-bee that is met with in the greatest part of Central and South Germany.

**The Drone Ranger** · 23-03-2015, 11:15 PM

It's only in a situation where the queen has produced all the bees in a hive that you get a chance to assess the results
I try and run all the hives with a swarm board because you have two queens per hive and can select and renew

One time I requeened half the hives with the daughters of a V.G. queen but for some reason they all were chalkbrood suseptible the following spring it took ages to fix that

Other times I have bred several daughters from a good queen without any probs so I just opt for the boards to spread the risk

I think to be fair if you can start with a good tempered bee it's easier to hang on to that trait rather than try to conjure it up from some ill tempered brutes

**prakel** · 27-04-2015, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by drumgerry

So.....we all know that Bro Adam travelled the world in his quest for the best bee races to use in his breeding for the "perfect" bee. In doing so he categorised such and such a race as being swarmy or another as being fond of the use of propolis etc etc. My question is this - are these and other characteristics intrinsic to these races of bee and unchangeable through breeding?

This pdf of a 1968 paper by prof. Ruttner presents some thoughts on the subject:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...91665533,d.bGg

**The Drone Ranger** · 28-04-2015, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by prakel

This pdf of a 1968 paper by prof. Ruttner presents some thoughts on the subject:

Thanks for that prakel very interesting read

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/123803-a...ire-beekeeper/

This is what can happen

**prakel** · 28-04-2015, 09:40 AM

Maybe asbo's should have been issued to everyone who's allowing unsuitable drones to fly freely across the countryside

**The Drone Ranger** · 28-04-2015, 10:06 AM

I don't know the inside story but I was told he had bees in his garden for years no problem until he developed an interest in bee breeding
who knows he might be on the SBAi forum and give us the other side of the tale

**SDM** · 03-08-2015, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by The Drone Ranger

Hi Drumgerry
I'm pretty sure you could start with any bee and select for the traits you most want
Epigenetics ie all the genes are present in every bee but which ones are activated ?

Trouble is that unlike the sheep and the cows etc we are not in control of both sides of the mating
Local adapted drones get involved and very few people can avoid that

Brother Adam really was taking a breeding shortcut because he was collecting bees which had the traits he wanted
From there, and with a fairly isolated position, he tried crossing those bees and fixing the traits in his new matings
He succeeded in his location but that wouldn't work for most people

Time to get the AI kit out

No trouble is thatt we allow are bees to breed with the local population polluting their lines.
Look at the characteristics we breed for.
1st Temperament, beekeepers want nice bees that don't sting when your in their hive, but then when Asian hornet come your nice bees will die, nicely. Ditto for other pests they do t recognise as a threat. Great for beekeepers bad for bees.
2nd prolifacy, in nature prolifacy has a direct negative affect on longevity , so will the winter bees in your most prolific hives still be alive come spring on the first extended winter ? Again its good for beekeepers, bad for bees.
3rd low swarming tendency, Swarming is a bees only means of reproduction. Nobody is re queening feral hives, what chance do they stand if they don't want to reproduce. One last time, good for beekeepers, bad etc etc.
Here's a simple fact in every domesticated species the progenitor is extinct usually because we allowed domesticated to breed with feral. Further to that none of the domesticated breeds can survive without human interaction is. AI because they're too big to mate naturally, assisted births because they carry too many offspring. Chickens that hatch only in incubators because the parent is too busy laying eggs to sit on them.
Nature doesn't wipe out less productive colonies, they survive and reproduce and just don't make so much surplus. nature doesn't wipe out aggressive Colonies but we do , since we requeen with a prefered genetic.
With feral Colonies in trouble because of pests and diseases we shipped to them beekeepers have never had a bigger influence on the genes of the species. I do something I'm sure none of you do. I keep non productive colonies and I'll keep aggressive ones as long as its confined to around the hive (im not irresponsible about it) I have one tiny swarm that nothing gets near without a fight, even swallow diving 3 ft from the hive will have 4 guard bees up its bum as it goes. They're horrors to inspect but Ive watched 3 of them take out a European hornet taking g dead bees of the floor they hit it one after the other and dragged it down into the grass(it didn't come back) These bees will never fill a brood box so they're no use to beekeepers but quite possibly bloody good for bees.
Until we can produce drone free production hives that cant inflict our preferences on the bees. When selecting qualities we should all think twice(once for ourselves and once for the species before we dispose of undesirable traits.
Now if I have similar swarm season next year to this, I'll have to find a different solution. I've come up with a marine ply box that with paint and sealed cuts should last 20-25yrs with a partial mesh floor and an inspection box so I can give them an OA vape each winter and give them a varroa free spring each year. I'm hoping g to get permission from. Natural resources Wales to put them into their forests .
The key to a successful species is a broad gene pool , not eugenics !