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Thread: Top bar hives

  1. #51

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    I was sorry to hear it, too. I've swithered over trying a (managed) tbh but so far I'm just experimenting with a double-length National brood box. Really liking it so far - my first spring with it, currently on about 10 frames of brood. They came through the winter nicely but I would like to figure how to insulate it better. How do you insulate yours?

  2. #52
    Senior Member chris's Avatar
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    @ MAAF
    I remember you writing that you were putting frames to replace the top bars in your Warré(s). So, have you totally abandoned them now? I find the Warré good for heat retention. Or are you referring only to your horizontal tbh?

    I read a lot that top bar hives give us calm bees that are much less agressive because of less tinkering with the hive. I have found (though with only one Warré I can't extrapolate) that because the bees are rarely visited, when they are they seem to resent it, and treat me much more badly then my Dadant bees .

  3. #53
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    The oft repeated claim that keeping bees in a tip bar hive make them calmer than bees in a hive with frames is one of the more ridiculous claims you hear from the devotees.
    The variables which control aggression are:
    -genetics of the queen
    -weather
    -clumsiness of the beekeeper
    -availability of forage
    -pests and predators annoying the hive (including teenage homo sapiens with drink taken)

    Ley lines and hive shape and top bars do not enter the equation.

    Chris, you might just have bees which have become a bit aggressive in the Warré. When they requeen themselves naturally you are always taking pot luck.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Adam's Avatar
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    Emma, I tried a 16 frame national and gave up - in fact I made two and a super. Bees didn't expand across the frames as I would have hoped so they didn't use the space well. The two boxes were cut down to standard Nationals after a couple of years. And as you point out, insulation will always be difficult for such a shape. I hope your experiment works better!

    Forever the fiddler, I have a 8 frame national design - one colony is currently with 3 brood boxes and 4 (full) supers on top, needing more. It's getting very tall! The 8 frame boxes are good for overwintering a decent nuc, but like a Warre, too small for a decent colony. The problem with a Warre as I see it, is that you have to lift the whole lot up to put another box at the bottom which seems unnecessary work.

  5. #55
    Senior Member prakel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    The oft repeated claim that keeping bees in a tip bar hive make them calmer than bees in a hive with frames is one of the more ridiculous claims you hear from the devotees.
    I'm not entirely certain that it's quite so cut and dried.

    Of course, it's hard to offer definite opinions when we de-select the angry ones as soon as we can but I do have a feeling that natural comb has some positive effect on temperament. Either way, there won't be 100% 'rule' because genetics and other factors will continue to play their part.

    Not to be confused with another aspect of horizontal topbar hives -the fact that the brood nest is sealed until you remove individual bars (a little like using a cover-cloth on a vertical hive) but that of course has nothing to do with bee behaviour and everything to do with an in-built control system.

    Oddly, I actually found myself in disagreement with some natural types a little while ago with regards to this (mind, I think the one feels like he's got to disagree with anything I say on principle ).

  6. #56
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    I have helped a top bar keeper with crabby bees in her TBH and re. natural comb I am a big fan and you can have that in any shape of container.
    I have several natural combs in most of my national brood boxes now and this comb is often a mix of cell sizes.

    The thing with the brood nest being sealed in a TBH is often negated by cross combing where the comb has to be ripped apart on inspection because it crosses several bars.
    Now that is a good way to wind up bees - tear the combs apart!
    You only have to read biobees to see how this is a recurring problem.

  7. #57
    Senior Member prakel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    I have helped a top bar keeper with crabby bees in her TBH and re. natural comb I am a big fan and you can have that in any shape of container.
    Hence my comments along the lines that it might not be a clear cut thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    I have several natural combs in most of my national brood boxes now and this comb is often a mix of cell sizes.

    The thing with the brood nest being sealed in a TBH is often negated by cross combing where the comb has to be ripped apart on inspection because it crosses several bars.
    Now that is a good way to wind up bees - tear the combs apart!
    You only have to read biobees to see how this is a recurring problem.
    Until a couple of weeks ago we didn't have a single comb built on foundation as it had all been rotated out at some point over the last eight or nine years that we've not been buying foundation. Now, we've got our hands on a Lithuanian foundation mould -and it's a real pleasure to see the combs being drawn. We'll still have a fair percentage of natural comb drawn this year simply because the mould came too late for us to be able to get on top of the situation -but hopefully we'll have a nice stock of foundation by next Spring.

    As for cross combing that's just bad (or lack of) management: seems to me that when Wyatt Mangum can claim not to have any such issue (he uses foundation starters) and when I've not found an issue with my dadants ran totally on natural comb (even when starting boxes off with nothing but correx 'guides') the only answer can be that there are a lot of people who don't know the best way to do it.

    I actually feel that the majority of people would be better learning to read a colony in a conventional hive before getting into the rather more advanced world of topbar hives (there, I've said it). I am of course referring to using the hives as a tool to manage the bees; no leave alone nonsense here.

  8. #58

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    :-) I was just writing a slightly defensive post about wild comb. I feel less alone now!
    - My longhive is National based, and uses standard National deep frames. So they all get disturbed a bit when I take the crownboards off.
    - I could be using foundation in them, but, after 4 years of gradually experimenting, by now I'm running all of my Nationals on wild comb. It's all still within frames, and if any frames get cross-combed together I sort it out as soon as I can. So I can inspect them all just like any other bad, evil conventional beekeeper does ;-)
    The wild comb is for all kinds of reasons: last year was my first try at all-wild-comb broodnests; I'm loving it so far, might stick with it, might not.
    But I've got one very good new reason for being keen on a longhive, and it's not an unusual one - doctor's orders: no heavy lifting. I'm not being the perfect patient in this regard, but I am trying to cut down.
    So... I'm trying to open the broodnest by adding combs in the centre, following Michael Bush's ideas. Didn't have chance to do it last year as the spring arrived earlier than the longhive did. Seems to be working ok so far this year. No new bracecomb on the crownboard, so they're not clamouring for Up, unlike a couple of their neighbours!

  9. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by prakel View Post
    I actually feel that the majority of people would be better learning to read a colony in a conventional hive before getting into the rather more advanced world of topbar hives (there, I've said it). I am of course referring to using the hives as a tool to manage the bees; no leave alone nonsense here.
    :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
    Music to my ears. I read and loved parts of the story being spun about top-bar longhives, back before I was actually responsible for any bees, but I'd already started lovingly restoring my dad's handmade Nationals and didn't want to be cut off from the collective experience of "conventional" beeks. I have _never_ regretted starting with standard Nationals, on foundation, with varroa treatments.
    As a current enthusiast for wild comb, I'm intrigued - what's brought you back to using foundation, and are you going to give up wild comb completely?

  10. #60
    Senior Member chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam View Post
    . The problem with a Warre as I see it, is that you have to lift the whole lot up to put another box at the bottom which seems unnecessary work.
    That is the beautiful theory of how the bees build downwards onto fresh comb for the brood box and leaving boxes of honey on top. Of course the reality is less comprehensible (to me at least) with the bees doing different things all the time. Marc Gatineau who was abee farmer working only Warrés invented his lift to save his back. I was talking recently with his daughter who has taken over from him. She admitted that for a long time now she has been running Warré hives like other hives.Bottom 2 boxes for brood, and others added on top when necessary like supers. She also uses frames. So, it would seem that the only (dis)advantage of a Warré is its size. I presume it's too small for yellows, as Adam points out.
    As for me, I added a box (no.3) underneath at the end of winter, and this year will add boxes on top when the flows start.

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