Neonicotinoids and CCD

[Neils]

Given you've quoted him elsewhere Randy Oliver also concurs that the Harvard Study used up to 400x:

Since when has 400 ppb ever been been considered to be “environmentally relevant”? Levels of 1-4 ppb are environmentally relevant; levels above 40 ppb are usually considered to be overtly toxic. So the 400 ppb figure is 100 – 400 times as strong as the normal measured levels in the field due to seed treatment.

Still on the front page Here as part of his entire critique of the study.

No scientific understanding required, more basic reading comprehension and cross referencing of supplied data. Not too late for that either.

[Jon]

LOL Doris. There are only two people on the planet who think that Harvard paper has merit, Yourself and Dr LU.
Most of the anti pesticide campaigners are keeping quiet about it as it is a bit of an embarrassment.

Poison is poisonous. We all learned so much from it!

Did you read Randy Oliver's critique yet?

Edit
And I concur with nellie, basic reading comprehension is all that is required for this basic yet hopelessly flawed study.

[Neils]

Did you read Randy Oliver's critique yet?

Randy Oliver states a clear link between neonics and varroa and nosema in his assessment of the Harvard study:

As the quote in this post comes from that critique I'd have to assume it's been read, but why give so much import on that particular sentence (other than it says what Doris presumably wants to hear) whilst ignoring absolutely everything else, especially the paragraph immediately preceding:

I can only imagine their surprise and disappointment when after nine weekly feedings of a full half gallon of syrup intentionally spiked to overtly toxic levels, that they still noted virtually no adverse effects! Surprisingly, the amount of broodrearing was unaffected at the 20, 40, and 200 ppb dosages, and only slightly depressed at the clearly toxic 400 ppb dose! Note that all the colonies were still alive at midwinter, fully 3 months after the dosing ended! If anything, this study clearly demonstrated that colonies of bees can survive prolonged poisoning by imidacloprid at excessively high levels!

oops, that's not the desired conclusion though is it? It's not helpful to discover that in this study even critics of it were surprised at just how high a level of imidacloprid the colonies were apparently able to tolerate.

[Jon]

Nosema is a disease which can be induced or be exacerbated by stress, any stress.

This includes any pesticide you care to mention, not just neonicotinoids.
Stress on a colony also includes interaction with additional pathogens, poor nutrition, colony nearing starvation point, too much beekeeper interference and tinkering, poor ventilation especially over winter, periods of long confinement due to weather, excessive colony density in an apiary, etc.

This much is common knowledge about nosema.
I try and manage my bees to minimise stress as I reckon varroa and nosema are the two major problems we face in UK/Irish beekeeping.

And maybe I just have to keep repeating that UK colony numbers are up from 40,000 to 140,000 in about 3 years. bbka figures. This talk of bees having big problems in the uk is just so much bull. Amongst the beekeepers I know, there are guys with near 100% success overwintering and it is the same people every year who lose most of their colonies. This is PPB rather than CCD.
Bees are certainly having big problems in the US but so many things are different there with regard to their agriculture and their beekeeping. Far more pesticides. Different approved treatments such as soil injection. Millions of hectares of monoculture maize in the midwest. Most of the US bee colonies coming together in California during almond pollination in February. All so different.

[Stromnessbees]

Bees are certainly having big problems in the US but so many things are different there with regard to their agriculture and their beekeeping. Far more pesticides. Different approved treatments such as soil injection. Millions of hectares of monoculture maize in the midwest. Most of the US bee colonies coming together in California during almond pollination in February. All so different.

All so different ... but for how long?

If we don't ban the neonics now and halt the introduction of GM we won't be very different soon!

These corporations know no limits, and shareholder profits go above everything. How long until UK beekeeping looks just like this?

cartoon.jpg

[Jon]

Borderbeeman posted that cartoon a couple of years ago. Old hat. You must really worship the bloke even though he walks like a duck.

What is your explanation for the huge increase in UK colony numbers in the past few years?
I presume you do not attribute the success to the increased use of neonicotinoid pesticides during this time although you do have serious issue re. cause and effect so anything is possible. Iphone sales have increased year on year in the same period so maybe we owe the success of UK honeybees to Steve Jobs (RIP) Or perhaps it is Facebook.

Lets start the campaign now. Ban the neonics. Death to Bayer and Syngenta. Three cheers for Carbamates, organophosphates, and pyrethroid pesticides. Bees just love that good ol' fashioned cocktail sprayed all around them like in the good old days. Party like it's 1975 all over again.

Be careful what you wish for. There is some very wooly thinking in the ban the neonic campaigns and you get some really dangerous crap back again. Dangerous to mammals as well.

[gavin]

Maybe it's not too late for you to get yourself a bit more education in biology so that you can learn how to read scientific studies properly.

Oh well, it has come to this. Everyone reading will understand at this point that Doris has lost the argument.

Nevertheless .....



And to be frank, I haven't a clue what is wrong is Austria. I'm sceptical that pesticides are really to blame - as the studies elsewhere have mostly exonerated them, save those planter dust episodes - but in maize planting areas they could have a role.

G.

[Jon]

The key in any study is to isolate the variables in order to be sure of cause and effect. Monoculture maize is bad habitat for bees with or without neonicotinoid seed treatment. Bees need a wide and varied diet, especially pollen from several sources.

I saw dead colonies and there was maize planted near by so that killed the bees.
I saw dead colonies and round the corner I saw a dog so it was the dogs wot dun it or maybe a cat.
This line of thinking is nonsensical.

[Stromnessbees]

Oh well, it has come to this. Everyone reading will understand at this point that Doris has lost the argument.

Nevertheless .....



And to be frank, I haven't a clue what is wrong is Austria. I'm sceptical that pesticides are really to blame - as the studies elsewhere have mostly exonerated them, save those planter dust episodes - but in maize planting areas they could have a role.

G.

Borderbeeman posted that cartoon a couple of years ago. Old hat. You must really worship the bloke even though he walks like a duck.

Shame on you two, you are back to using those strategies again: Gavin uses ridicule, Jon uses association with persons that are considered unpopular.

Do I really need to remind you?

Strategy No. 1: They write nonsensical or distractive posts in order to make a thread that is critical about pesticides or GM boring and uninteresting to any genuine beekeeper. - Please notice that shills usually work as a team, boosting each other and driving the thread away from its original intention.

A second strategy is to make the pesticide or GM sceptic look ridiculous, foolish, fanatical, an outsider or - a favourite - calling him a conspiracy theorist. They will also try to associate him with unpopular persons or movements.

A third strategy is to baffle the genuine reader with science: they claim that if you haven't read certain scientific papers from beginning to end you can't take part in the discussion, they make you feel inferior. - Not-so-subtle psychology being used here in order to frustrate you and to scare you away from the real issues.

Typically, posts sent by shills appear very quickly after any concerns about pesticides or GM are raised as they are using the search facility all the time just to track these topics!

If I notice this kind of behaviour here again I will not hesitate to point it out and initiate steps to curtail it.

[Jon]

Doris. Your posts lack logic. And you frequently state that you don't need to provide any evidence.
Don't be surprised when people start to have a laugh especially when you try and couple that attitude with your own academic qualifications and the perceived lack of qualifications of those debating with you. I would say you might be on a sticky wicket there as this forum has neither shills nor fools on it.