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Thread: Are neonicotinoid pesticides responsible for the demise of bees and other wildlife?

  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by gavin View Post
    Give it a rest John. This is a beekeeping forum. Folk are welcome here if they use Nationals, Smiths, Langstroths, Polyhives, Warres, TBHs, Concrete block hives, tree trunk hives, straw skeps or folded recycled election propaganda. They can keep Buckfasts, Italians, Carnies, Caucasians, or ultra-pure Scottish native blacks. They can welcome or eschew all the latest chemical crutches for beekeeping. They can even support RNAi methods in beekeeping if they like. GM bees (not my cup of tea), Africanised bees, stingless bees. They can keep bees for fun, for honey, for profit, for loss, to pollinate their crops, for stinging therapy, or just to provide natural fertiliser for the garden. They can choose whatever means of transport they wish, they can vote for whatever political party takes their fancy. Sexual orientation not an issue. Religion. Believing in fairies at the bottom of the garden, little green men, alien abduction, chemtrails even. Gardening methodologies and philosophy. All OK with us .... until anyone tries ramming their own ideas down someone else's throat. *That* is an issue. So please, give it a rest.

    G.
    This section of the forum is Beekeeping and the Environment. This is my field of interst.
    I have two hives on my farm, I have made and fixed Smith's and KTBs. We also have several species of bumblebees. Our AMM's have been carefully bred and protected for many generations. We are free of varroa, and most other threats except, I suppose, our latitude.
    I will not 'give it a rest'. If I think I have something to say, I'll say it. If you don't like it , or can't manage it, just stay out of it.

  2. #32
    Senior Member prakel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gavin View Post
    Folk are welcome here if they use Nationals, Smiths, Langstroths, Polyhives, Warres, TBHs, Concrete block hives, tree trunk hives, straw skeps or folded recycled election propaganda.
    Should I be loading my dadants and moving on?!!

  3. #33
    Senior Member prakel's Avatar
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    I think it's a shame that there have been so many threads recently which have taken a rather agressive tone due to differing views with regards to the neonics debate.

    When a man can echo Kirk Webster by writing the following...

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnthefarmer View Post
    My own experience demonstrates that there are cleverer ways of operating than killing every last living thing on your land that you can't sell. Most of those beasties are beneficial, and if they're not you should probably think why not and change your system rather them zapping them.
    he needs to be recognized as a thinker which means, to me, that he's probably got a lot of insights which are worth listenng to. The problem is the way that people are tending to present their arguments; each camp taking unmovable positions when no one actually knows for certain -there would be no debate if absolute conclusive proof was available.

    OK, I personally tend to believe that there are far greater dangers to the bees than are being addressed in this debate but I stand by what I've written before with regards to keeping an open mind untill such time as those who are cleverer than myself have presented their conclusive proof one way or another -even then, varroa and nosema will still be the major contributing factors to any general downturn (supposed or real) in bee health. The problem is that I'm starting to feel alienated from both camps because of the way some of the information is being presented not only here but on other forums too.
    Last edited by prakel; 16-07-2012 at 07:27 AM.

  4. #34
    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnthefarmer View Post
    I will not 'give it a rest'. If I think I have something to say, I'll say it. If you don't like it , or can't manage it, just stay out of it.
    You might not like this, but I currently administer this forum. That means that either myself or my wee helpers will intervene from time to time, and if your zeal causes you to get too personal then we will not just advise you against it but act to stop you. Come on here to talk beekeeping and be respectful of others' views and you will be made welcome.

    If you prefer a forum where unquestioning acceptance of the more extreme end of the pro-organic spectrum holds sway and the administrator and moderators have exactly the views you seem to want from those helping run communities of beekeepers, then I'm sure that you know Phil Chandler's site.

    Oh yes, Prakel, Dadants are in too. Dadants in England, no problem. Anyone, anywhere, willing to contribute to beekeeping discussion and retain a polite, respectful attitude, you're in. Thoughtful beekeepers, different perspectives, intelligent contributors, willing to discuss the difficult issues without getting patronising or too heated, bit of a twinkle in the eye and a sense of humour, even better!

    G.

  5. #35
    Senior Member prakel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gavin View Post
    Oh yes, Prakel, Dadants are in too. Dadants in England, no problem.
    I'm glad to hear that -don't fancy moving them to new pastures as a third of them are in an apiary on the side of a large pond which has recently spread to encompass the hive stands. But at least not as bad as Chris Slade up the road who's apparently had a couple of colonies washed away recently.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prakel View Post

    he needs to be recognized as a thinker which means, to me, that he's probably got a lot of insights which are worth listenng to.
    My sympathies are firmly with the organic camp but I happen to believe, based on best available evidence, that the neonicotinoid debate is a red herring with regard to bee problems.
    Like JTF, I would not use sprays or pesticides in my garden and I prefer to live with the weeds.
    I dislike killing anything to such an extent that I have been a vegetarian for over 30 years.
    I make a notable exception for wasps!!
    I don't own or drive a car.
    I grow a lot of my own food, you get the picture.

    What I cannot abide is the aggression and the pomposity of some who are self appointed spokes people for the organic movement or the lefties.
    I can think for myself thank you very much without having child like arguments and flawed logic rammed down my throat by people for whom logic and evidence are alien concepts.

    That and the constant accusation that anyone who opposes the unreferenced drivel is a 'shill' or a pesticide apologist.

    The real harm is being done by those getting research monies channeled in the wrong direction.

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    Hmm, interesting, Jon. Why do you kill wasps? They're great for getting rid of cabbage white caterpillars. They can be a nuisance around hives in autumn but we don't find them a major problem so only remove wasp nests if they're a danger to us or guests where they are. Himself was mortified last year when he accidentally stood on a wasp nest while picking blackcurrants .. not because he got stung (he didn't) but because they died as a result! It was a bad year for brassicas because of it; what the caterpillars didn't munch the deer finished off

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    Senior Member chris's Avatar
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    Most of us have an opinion about pesticides in general. Where things get complicated is the relationship between pesticides and bees, because some papers say this and some say that; and some people use the lack of consensus to persue their own ends.In whatever direction. Why bees? Why not the problems of pesticide contact for exploited farm workers? Or whatever. Bees are rather lucky in France- when the powerful get together to approve or disapprove the marketing of a particular pesticide, there is a"bee group" which gives its opinion, which can stop the pesticide getting approved. There is no such group for most other living species.
    But what I really don't understand is why bee forums are polluted with all these threads. If I wanted to stop pesticides, I'd be trying to convince the farmers who use them that they'd be better off not doing so. Beekeepers aren't the ones spraying the fields . It's a bit like trying to persuade someone who has been shot that guns are not good.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trog View Post
    Hmm, interesting, Jon. Why do you kill wasps?
    Wasps and Apideas do not mix once you get to August.
    When you find they have killed half a dozen laying queens you start to lose patience although I do appreciate that they have their benefits especially earlier in the season.

  10. #40
    Senior Member prakel's Avatar
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    Jon, when I wrote

    Quote Originally Posted by prakel View Post

    he needs to be recognized as a thinker which means, to me, that he's probably got a lot of insights which are worth listenng to.
    I was actually making a general observation to the effect that he's proably got a lot of 'stuff' which it would be worth hearing about, stuff outside of the pesticide debate. Stuff which he has observed and experienced at first hand during his agricultural career. I reckon, based on a couple of his earlier posts, that most of us would find value in his experiences even if not directly applicable to our daily lives; such posts would add real value to this forum.

    Possibly I'm at fault for not making that clearer to begin with but I did go on to point out that I don't like the way that a lot of the arguments are being presented; no, I didn't specify 'John's arguments' but I certainly didn't exclude them either.

    Then we come to your direct reply to me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    My sympathies are firmly with the organic camp but I happen to believe, based on best available evidence, that the neonicotinoid debate is a red herring with regard to bee problems.
    Like JTF, I would not use sprays or pesticides in my garden and I prefer to live with the weeds.
    I dislike killing anything to such an extent that I have been a vegetarian for over 30 years.
    I make a notable exception for wasps!!
    I don't own or drive a car.
    I grow a lot of my own food, you get the picture.
    Yes, i think that I do.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    What I cannot abide is the aggression and the pomposity of some who are self appointed spokes people for the organic movement or the lefties.
    I can think for myself thank you very much without having child like arguments and flawed logic rammed down my throat by people for whom logic and evidence are alien concepts.

    That and the constant accusation that anyone who opposes the unreferenced drivel is a 'shill' or a pesticide apologist.

    The real harm is being done by those getting research monies channeled in the wrong direction.
    I share a disike for aggression and pomposity which was pretty much what my post which you've quoted was about. I don't like to feel that I'm being shouted at by either side because like you, I too am capable of thinking for myself.

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