Are neonicotinoid pesticides responsible for the demise of bees and other wildlife?

[Johnthefarmer]

Isn't it telling that Lindsay has waited all this time to reveal his own philosophy in his garden? Times have changed when folk behaving in the way the majority of gardeners do are inhibited from talking about it - then criticised like this.

In defence of Lindsay, his perspective isn't limited, it is just different. In fact it is mainstream. Too bad if you and Doris don't like it, John. Get over it, move on, and if you are personally active in the Orkney beekeepers group, leave it at home. I'm also going to ask you to leave at home any more critical comments directed at Lindsay that you might think of bringing to SBAi. This isn't the place for it and I doubt that anywhere is.

So, I've just been admonished by the administrator of a beekeepers' forum for criticising a fellow beekeeper for the gungho use of herbicides and pesticides, in his garden.
Why?

[Trog]

Possibly because this forum is for everyone, not just the organic gardeners amongst us? By all means, lambast a pesticide/herbicide user on a 'bio' forum but this is meant to be a friendly place where folk can chat about bees and beekeeping and get balanced advice rather than a soapbox for individual preferences.

It would be just as wrong for me to post threads along the lines of, 'lady beekeepers are better for bees because ...'

Even though we are [dons tin hat and waits for a furious response from the lads ...]

[Jon]

Well said Trog.

I could get up on a soap box about a lot of things but this is not the place. And I am an organic gardener who does not use either roundup or slug pellets!

The irritating thing is that each and every one of us knows that pesticides can cause great harm to bees but the debate has been hijacked with regard to one family of pesticides - neonicotinoids.
There is a vast body of research out there for anyone who cares to browse it and the huge majority of published papers indicate that at field realistic levels this family of pesticides causes little or no harm to bees. There are a couple of papers which flag up some dangers out of many hundreds published. Nosema interactions is one possible worry area. Planter dust when maize is sown is another.
The stuff about oil seed rape and queen problems is abject nonsense without a shred of evidence as per usual.

[Johnthefarmer]

From the responses so far it seems that it's ok for a beekeeper to spray stuff willy-nilly about his own garden, advertise his actions, be supported by admin and other 'mainstream' supporters, but ungallant of a fellow islander, who farms organically. has Great Yellows on his land etc to suggest that sometimes it's necessary to think beyond the label on the tin!

[Johnthefarmer]

Well said Trog.

I could get up on a soap box about a lot of things but this is not the place. And I am an organic gardener who does not use either roundup or slug pellets!

The irritating thing is that each and every one of us knows that pesticides can cause great harm to bees but the debate has been hijacked with regard to one family of pesticides - neonicotinoids.
There is a vast body of research out there for anyone who cares to browse it and the huge majority of published papers indicate that at field realistic levels this family of pesticides causes little or no harm to bees. There are a couple of papers which flag up some dangers out of many hundreds published. Nosema interactions is one possible worry area. Planter dust when maize is sown is another.
The stuff about oil seed rape and queen problems is abject nonsense without a shred of evidence as per usual.

If this is not the place for Scottish beekeepers to argue about stuff that might threaten our bees, where else is?
I personally don't just rant against neonics. My own experience demonstrates that there are cleverer ways of operating than killing every last living thing on your land that you can't sell. Most of those beasties are beneficial, and if they're not you should probably think why not and change your system rather them zapping them.

[lindsay s]

Hello John first of all I’m not offended by any comments posted by you or Doris. Our paths do cross occasionally and we have attended bee meetings in each other’s homes.
I’m not proud of using pesticides and herbicides I’m just being practical. Walk into any garden centre and you will see shelves full of the stuff, do you think I’m the only person out there using them. Our flower and vegetable patch is guarded by my partner and is off limits to me but if something needs spraying I have no qualms about doing it.
I first took an interest in beekeeping in the late seventies and only acquired my first hive after numerous visits to my mentor’s apiary. In those days the general perception of beekeepers was that they were grumpy old men or eccentric spinsters, being in my late teens I thought I broke the mould. In reality most of today’s long term beekeepers probably got started the same way as me. There were no rules saying you had to love the planet.
My perception of most of the people who have recently jumped on the beekeeping bandwagon is that they are trendy thirty something’s or tree huggers out to save the planet. I think most of the thirty something’s will be using their expensive well-insulated Beehaus’s as wine coolers in a few years time. As for the tree huggers the less said about them the better but don’t expect me to bang the neonicotinoid drum.
I keep bees because I like honey and find them interesting.

Lindsay

P.S. John until your great yellows can fly the 15 plus miles to my garden you should have no problems from me.

[gavin]

Give it a rest John. This is a beekeeping forum. Folk are welcome here if they use Nationals, Smiths, Langstroths, Polyhives, Warres, TBHs, Concrete block hives, tree trunk hives, straw skeps or folded recycled election propaganda. They can keep Buckfasts, Italians, Carnies, Caucasians, or ultra-pure Scottish native blacks. They can welcome or eschew all the latest chemical crutches for beekeeping. They can even support RNAi methods in beekeeping if they like. GM bees (not my cup of tea), Africanised bees, stingless bees. They can keep bees for fun, for honey, for profit, for loss, to pollinate their crops, for stinging therapy, or just to provide natural fertiliser for the garden. They can choose whatever means of transport they wish, they can vote for whatever political party takes their fancy. Sexual orientation not an issue. Religion. Believing in fairies at the bottom of the garden, little green men, alien abduction, chemtrails even. Gardening methodologies and philosophy. All OK with us .... until anyone tries ramming their own ideas down someone else's throat. *That* is an issue. So please, give it a rest.

G.

[Bumble]

Thank you.

[HJBee]

My perception of most of the people who have recently jumped on the beekeeping bandwagon is that they are trendy thirty something’s or tree huggers out to save the planet.

I am getting my own colony this week coming, after getting into beekeeping for general environmental / ecological reasons & a general interest in Nature. I am 40 in Sept, damn 👎 looks like I just possibly fit your stereotype in both classes!! 😉

I do admire your honesty, even if I don't choose to apply the same methods! 👏

[Neils]

Not 40 until January and never been accused of being trendy Do I have to get a beehaus? I really don't want one.