Are neonicotinoid pesticides responsible for the demise of bees and other wildlife?

[madasafish]

Hi John
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You get gurus telling others how to do it without demonstrating that they can do it themselves.
This is most apparent in the 'natural' beekeeping movement where the majority including guys like Phil Chandler keep losing their bees due to poor or non existent varroa control yet keep urging others to follow the mantra in the face of poor results.

As a TBH keeper, I agree 100% with Jon on this issue.. There are a lot of TBH newbies doomed to disappointment and failure as the methods advised are unrealistic for the climate outside a warm southern UK and pest control in your first years as a beekeeper is essential - there are enough things extra to go wrong without adding a major one like varroa. Fortunately to someone who trained at a BBKA apiary, the shortfalls were obvious.


Anyone who loses all their bees through disease is a poor beekeeper.

[Jon]

Anyone who loses all their bees through disease is a poor beekeeper.

Amen to that and control of varroa mite is not rocket science if you are careful about the timing of the treatment.
If anything, nosema is harder to detect and harder to control although I have had very good results after adding some thymol to the winter feed as in Pete Little's recipe. Will do the same this winter when feeding.
The Youcel paper which looked at colonies over 3 winters found that this was a more effective control of nosema than fumidil.
If you keep these two maladies in check, your bees will more than likely thrive.

[madasafish]

Amen to that and control of varroa mite is not rocket science if you are careful about the timing of the treatment.
If anything, nosema is harder to detect and harder to control although I have had very good results after adding some thymol to the winter feed as in Pete Little's recipe. Will do the same this winter when feeding.
The Youcel paper which looked at colonies over 3 winters found that this was a more effective control of nosema than fumidil.
If you keep these two maladies in check, your bees will more than likely thrive.

Yes : I used Thymol in feed last year and no nosema this year.. Seems like the BBKA are unaware of this with the fuss they kicked up about fumidil.

But as they are 50 years behind the times anyway... (I speak as a member)

[Neils]

THis is the same organisation that wants to spend my hard earned money studying whether the north of england can use pyrethoids for varroa again mind you.

Went down today to pick up the remains of a colony that was all but dead from Nosema like symptoms. When I went down last I had some thymol laced syrup to get them through the rain and found a handful of bees with the queen and not much else. Gave them the syrup anyway and pretty much left them to it. Finally went back today to pick up the hive and feeder and get it cleaned up and found.... 5 frames of brood, the same queen. My Flabber is Gasted. There was literally a fist full of bees in a 14x12 when I left them, you could have comfortably put them in an apidea. I've not touched them since april and yet they're alive. Granted they had all the syrup they could want to get them through the rain, but they'd had it, I only left the hive open and in place because I didn't want to tell the owners of the land that "their" bees had died.

[Jon]

But as they are 50 years behind the times anyway... (I speak as a member)

Never had the pleasure as I am a member of the UBKA which affiliates to the Irish beekeeper association, FIBKA, although I did get a secret handshake pass so that I can post on the bbka website for what it's worth.

Nellie that is an amazing turnaround. I wonder could it have picked up a queenless cast or something as it is hard to imagine an apidea's worth of bees reproducing so quickly even with a good tail wind. happy ending anyway.

[Neils]

Beats me. As much as you can deduce anything looking at the workers they're the daughters of the queen and nobody marks a queen as badly as I do so she is absolutely the same one I saw in April. They're of carnolian descent so they do just turn resource into brood and I wonder how much that's played a part. They're a strong Nuc at the moment having not been touched since april when I could literally have scooped them out in one hand and dumped them in an apidea. They had a lot of syrup because I assumed they were going to be a strong colony, I was just so dejected I dumped the syrup on and left and I've not looked at them for near 3 months. A colony that small and probably with nosema won't survive so I didn't bother to look at them.

There are lots of things I think I should have done, perhaps leaving them alone to just get on with it was, actually, the best course of action.

[chris]

There are a lot of TBH newbies doomed to disappointment and failure as the methods advised are unrealistic for the climate outside a warm southern UK
.

Do you include the Warré hive in the thh's? If so I'd be interested in your elaboration of this statement before I plunge too deeply. Funny that: MAAF is the name of my insurance company.

[madasafish]

Do you include the Warré hive in the thh's? If so I'd be interested in your elaboration of this statement before I plunge too deeply. Funny that: MAAF is the name of my insurance company.

Yes.

Many newbies are full of doe eyed enthusiasm to be green, go on a 1 day course and set about keeping bees with a TBH or warre and determined to let the bees live "naturally".

They know nothing really of bee keeping, nothing of pest control - and don't believe in it in many cases - and nothing about swarming, or winterising hives.



TBHs will winter very well even in bad climates but you need to winterise # them and prevent wasp attacks in autumn etc. Varroa builds up over a 1-3 year period and can decimate any hive : I saw a double brood box very vigorous hive collapse at our Association apiary in 3 months due to varroa (treated and survived).

And nosema can as well. There are lots of very effective (and cheap) diy remedies mainly using thymol -or purchased ones - which are very effective. But many of these newbies hope to live with natural bees and disease resistant ones.

Sorry but the world is not like that.

Starting beekeeping with no knowledge and a decision to go against current wisdom is fine : if you are lucky or have an experienced mentor.

Most have neither.

If you want to have a taste of it, read some of the threads on natural bee keeping forum.

I keep TBHs as they are cheap require less equipment and are easy to handle. Anyone who thinks they are hands off will eventually suffer an entire hive loss. Still if you have plenty of money, or lots of swarms around that may not matter but it's hardly "saving the bees".

I learned at a BBKA apiary (N Staffs) which made my first hive easy. Despite that, my first two years were: interesting .

# closed bottoms.

Edit: I have 2 x warres (self made from pallets. ). They don't work well in my garden - maybe it's the altitude 250 metres and the cold and the wet.. I will bin them next year if they continue to not work well.. - refusal to enter another box.

[Bridget]

Yes.

Many newbies are full of doe eyed enthusiasm to be green, go on a 1 day course and set about keeping bees with a TBH or warre and determined to let the bees live "naturally".

They know nothing really of bee keeping, nothing of pest control - and don't believe in it in many cases - and nothing about swarming, or winterising hives.
.

Bla bla bla
As a newbie I have met rheumy eyed good old boys, kept bees for 40 yrs and believe that if a colony is not strong enough to survive, they don't deserve to survive. Survival of the fittest etc etc. and they have lost nearly every colony in recent years because they don't believe in treating disease.
I believe that very many of the newbies are committed to the bees, to increase the colonies in the UK. To learn how to raise a healthy bee colony. And it is very unhelpful to brand all newbies as ignorant.

[Jon]

And it is very unhelpful to brand all newbies as ignorant.

To be fair, I don't think that is what he was saying, and there are definitely newbies who have been sold the guff from Phil Chandler and his ilk re non treatment and as they don't know any better they lose their bees to varroa.
It is all Unicorns and rainbows and the bees are chilled out automatically in a top bar.
I agree, some of the worst beekeepers I know are the 40 year + brigade.
Reluctant to change in the face of new threats, terrible handlers, obstructive of those who want to move things forward in the local association etc.

There you go, I think we have managed to offend everyone now!