Are neonicotinoid pesticides responsible for the demise of bees and other wildlife?

[Jon]

I don't know about selling seed but on a small scale like an allotment group seed gets shared all the time.
I always have enough parsnip seed to sow about half an acre so I divvy it up amount the other allotment holders.
You get an incredible amount of seed from half a dozen plants left to run to seed.
On a wordwide basis sharecropping is a very common form of agriculture.
Poor people who have no land enter into a partnership agreement with better off farmers who own land.
The farmer prepares the land for the crop and the sharecropper provides the seed, plants it, and does most of the crop maintainance.
the landowner might help again with the harvest and sale of the crop. Profits are split whatever way has been agreed.
I have been involved in schemes like this myself at the project where I work in Mexico where we provided seed and sowed a couple of acres of (heritage variety non seed treated ) maize on land owned by a local farmer.

[Johnthefarmer]

I don't know about selling seed but on a small scale like an allotment group seed gets shared all the time.
I always have enough parsnip seed to sow about half an acre so I divvy it up amount the other allotment holders.
You get an incredible amount of seed from half a dozen plants left to run to seed.
On a wordwide basis sharecropping is a very common form of agriculture.
Poor people who have no land enter into a partnership agreement with better off farmers who own land.
The farmer prepares the land for the crop and the sharecropper provides the seed, plants it, and does most of the crop maintainance.
the landowner might help again with the harvest and sale of the crop. Profits are split whatever way has been agreed.
I have been involved in schemes like this myself at the project where I work in Mexico where we provided seed and sowed a couple of acres of (heritage variety non seed treated ) maize on land owned by a local farmer.

Jon, In all you posts( sorry not all) there is a disjunction between what you do on your own allotment, for your own consumption, and what you accept as inevitable for everybody else. Why does the non-landowning population have to accept rubbish treatment.I know they are way the majority, that the rural/urban ratio has become imbalanced. Us food producers have to be responsible in our attitude towards our our dependents.

[Trog]

[QUOTE=Johnthefarmer;12553][QUOTE=Trog;12

Getting all heated about one tiny thing,


If it was one tiny thing I wouldn't be so bothered.
I understand milllions of acres are neoniced annually.[/QUOTE]

John/Doris. Read the news from Syria or anywhere else where not getting blown to bits or shot or driven from one's home is the main priority, then tell me the neonics debate isn't tiny. Perhaps your considerable talents as 'forces of nature' could be put to better use alleviating the results of real, rather than imagined, evil. I, for one, have become as fed-up with the neonics debate as I was in the days when the GM debate monopolised the SBA magazine for months.

[Jon]

Hi John
There is a huge difference between doing things on a very small scale like I do, small scale like you do, and on the other hand, agribusiness involving thousands or tens of thousands of acres.
The most obvious way to help bees and other pollinators and local wildlife is to create habitat and forage among the monoculture via hedgerows, specially planted strips of forage plants and stuff like that.

I don't accept that stuff is inevitable and I very strongly argue that some products on the market are much more dangerous than others.
I think it is critical to avoid the trap of a them and us situation with regard to forms of agriculture.

I have learned over the last 20 years of work in Mexico that the only way to convince a food producer that organic or chemical free is better than conventional is to set up a system which shows that it can be done. I spent many years plugging away at that and I can tell you it is not easy in sub tropical agriculture. The reproduction rate of pests and parasites is incredible. I have visited projects all over the place in Mexico and I have yet to see an effective organic system which goes beyond a few square metres.
People here who live off the organic system and associated philosophy do so by giving courses and charging for them or charging for 'consultancy'
I have seen this happen a bit in the UK as well.
You get gurus telling others how to do it without demonstrating that they can do it themselves.
This is most apparent in the 'natural' beekeeping movement where the majority including guys like Phil Chandler keep losing their bees due to poor or non existent varroa control yet keep urging others to follow the mantra in the face of poor results.

[Johnthefarmer]

Jon, In all you posts( sorry not all) there is a disjunction between what you do on your own allotment, for your own consumption, and what you accept as inevitable for everybody else. Why does the non-landowning population have to accept rubbish treatment.I know they are way the majority, that the rural/urban ratio has become imbalanced. Us food producers have to be responsible in our attitude towards our our dependents.

[Johnthefarmer]

Hi John
There is a huge difference between doing things on a very small scale like I do, small scale like you do, and on the other hand, agribusiness involving thousands or tens of thousands of acres.
The most obvious way to help bees and other pollinators and local wildlife is to create habitat and forage among the monoculture via hedgerows, specially planted strips of forage plants and stuff like that.

I don't accept that stuff is inevitable and I very strongly argue that some products on the market are much more dangerous than others.
I think it is critical to avoid the trap of a them and us situation with regard to forms of agriculture.

I have learned over the last 20 years of work in Mexico that the only way to convince a food producer that organic or chemical free is better than conventional is to set up a system which shows that it can be done. I spent many years plugging away at that and I can tell you it is not easy in sub tropical agriculture. The reproduction rate of pests and parasites is incredible. I have visited projects all over the place in Mexico and I have yet to see an effective organic system which goes beyond a few square metres.
People here who live off the organic system and associated philosophy do so by giving courses and charging for them or charging for 'consultancy'
I have seen this happen a bit in the UK as well.
You get gurus telling others how to do it without demonstrating that they can do it themselves.
This is most apparent in the 'natural' beekeeping movement where the majority including guys like Phil Chandler keep losing their bees due to poor or non existent varroa control yet keep urging others to follow the mantra in the face of poor results.

I accept your stance and will think about it before my next reply!

[Johnthefarmer]

Hi John
There is a huge difference between doing things on a very small scale like I do, small scale like you do, and on the other hand, agribusiness involving thousands or tens of thousands of acres.
The most obvious way to help bees and other pollinators and local wildlife is to create habitat and forage among the monoculture via hedgerows, specially planted strips of forage plants and stuff like that.

I don't accept that stuff is inevitable and I very strongly argue that some products on the market are much more dangerous than others.
I think it is critical to avoid the trap of a them and us situation with regard to forms of agriculture.

I have learned over the last 20 years of work in Mexico that the only way to convince a food producer that organic or chemical free is better than conventional is to set up a system which shows that it can be done. I spent many years plugging away at that and I can tell you it is not easy in sub tropical agriculture. The reproduction rate of pests and parasites is incredible. I have visited projects all over the place in Mexico and I have yet to see an effective organic system which goes beyond a few square metres.
People here who live off the organic system and associated philosophy do so by giving courses and charging for them or charging for 'consultancy'
I have seen this happen a bit in the UK as well.
You get gurus telling others how to do it without demonstrating that they can do it themselves.
This is most apparent in the 'natural' beekeeping movement where the majority including guys like Phil Chandler keep losing their bees due to poor or non existent varroa control yet keep urging others to follow the mantra in the face of poor results.

You seem to be telling me that it's almost impossible to farm in a highly fertile environment without resorting to fertilisers and biocides produced by 'the big companies'. Have the Mexicans forgotten everything?
Surely you see that that can't be right?
I have heard that many areas of Mexico are suffering a prolonged drought, but I don't think that necessarily alters my case.

[Jon]

I am only reporting what I see.
They have certainly forgotten everything that the Aztecs knew about agriculture as the Aztecs had a sophisticated system involving crops on artificial floating islands. Small scale compared to modern agriculture.
One of the main theories for the demise of the Mayan Indians is that they cleared too much forest for agriculture and induced climate change so maybe they were not so smart either.
The problem with agriculture today is that we are where we are rather than starting from some well balanced utopia.
If you sow crops without protecting them they just get over run with pests and plagues.
Been there, done that.
No drought here. Much wetter than the UK during the rainy season.
The main issue is that it is totally different working small scale to large scale.
I could probably run a couple of acres but I have yet to see someone run things successfully on a larger scale.
I believe there are successful organic systems working in Cuba but I have not had a chance to visit any of them.
Strangely enough it is cheaper to fly to Cuba from the UK than it is from Mexico.

[Johnthefarmer]

Tempted to take an October break in Cuba.

[Jon]

Wait another month until the hurricane season has ended.