The Rose method of queen rearing

[mbc]

No, the rationale is striving for perfection, and only settling for excellence, or some such my old woodwork teacher used to tell me anyway, wish I'd taken more notice at the time now, a very wise man who has since passed away.

Page 18, contemporary queen rearing by Harry H. Laidlaw Jr.
Feeding of larvae
"Since food is the critical element in the determination of the queen caste and in the development of this caste to its full potential, we must design our cell building operation so that all larvae that are to become queens are fed abundantly with proper food from the time they hatch from the egg until they finish eating in the sealed cell."

Page 31, breeding super bees by Steve Taber
"Whatever method or technique is used, the first few hours starting the newly grafted queen cells are probably the most critical for developing large, well fed adult queen bees".

Page 12, queen bee: biology, rearing and breeding by David Woodward
1.4 caste determination
"By contrast, larvae developing in queen cells are fed royal jelly in copious amounts. During the first three days the royal jelly fed to these larvae is produced from nurse bee secretions of the mandibular glands only."

Page 75, bee sex essentials by Lawrence John Connor
"Absolutely anything that interferes with the development of the queen and her eventual size will interfere with the size of the queen, the number of her ovarioles, and even the size of her spermatheca."

I'll leave it there as I'm just boasting about my library.

[Little_John]

I don't disagree with any of those quotes, but I would still assert that providing the larva is fed an adequate amount of royal jelly during the first 24 hrs, such that there is some jelly remaining in the cup after that time, then the larva will clearly have eaten all that it is able to, and that no advantage would have been gained by feeding it any more. Indeed, there might even be some risk of drowning the larva (let's not forget it needs to breathe) if excess were to be artificially applied over such a tiny creature.

In your quest for perfection by ensuring abundant jelly during the first 24hrs, you may wish to contact Wilkinson and Brown who clearly do not share your concerns, for they do not appear to have any problem at all with dry grafting:
"The Chinese grafting tool has the advantage of transferring a bed of royal jelly along with the larvae, but good acceptance rates have been obtained from dry grafting with a metal tool or a fine wetted paintbrush."

I would have thought that denying the larva access to royal jelly for 15-30 minutes, or however long it takes to return the grafts to the nurse bees is a serious mistake, which is one of the reasons I intend to try the CupKit system next year, rather than dry grafting, as a visible amount of royal jelly in the brown cups is one indication of larva suitability, such jelly being transferred along with the larva, thus ensuring it's continuous availability.

LJ

[mbc]

Some jelly is always transfered even with dry grafting and 15 - 30 minutes is excessive, I reckon to get out and back in in not much more than five minutes, grafting in the truck at the apiary.
The jenter and cupkit systems are appealing for that reason- larvae not being manipulated out of the cells- but in practice most queen rearers switch to grafting quite early on in their evolution, with no apparent loss in queen quality. I see that's contra to the above quotes but I suppose practical experience leads to knowing where accommodations can be made for convenience without compromising the main goal of top quality queens.

[Jon]

No matter what system you use or the steps you take, there is always some variation in feeding. The larvae towards the centre of the frame tend to get fed better than the larvae at the edge for example.
If I get a really small queen cell, or a very small queen from a decent sized queen cell, I discard them.
You have to use your own judgement re. what makes an acceptable queen and given the background population we have ensuring that she mates with the right sort of drone is probably the biggest issue.

I dry graft with a 000 sable brush and that works well for me.

[mbc]

I force myself to choose some for culling, even if they all look good taking out the less good is bound to push the bell curve of quality in the right direction.
I also use a brush for grafting.

[Jon]

I force myself to choose some for culling, even if they all look good taking out the less good is bound to push the bell curve of quality in the right direction.
I also use a brush for grafting.

Yep. Try and produce more than you need and then select the best. The very small queens usually don't mate properly and turn into drone layers so you might as well cull them early.

[gavin]

The very small queens usually don't mate properly and turn into drone layers so you might as well cull them early.

Do you think bigger queens are somehow better at the mating process, maybe better able to fly better in sub-optimal weather, or is it something else? Just very small queens that don't mate well or is it a continuous improvement with increasig size?

[Rosie]

I am quite happy to hear "rain on my parade". I find that with my system the the half box with the larvae is invariably bursting with bees, probably because they find it easier to get in there than out of it again. In addition I used the queenless system for about 5 years before finding a queenright system that works even better for me. I am pretty sure that I am producing better queens than I ever managed before as my colonies have improved in recent years although I can't tell if it's due to my selection getting better or my queen rearing improving.

I don't agree that it is more complicated than using a queenless system - I don't even have to find the queen and am happy to do everything gloveless and in a garden setting. In contrast I once came drastically unstuck when I removed the queen from a hybrid colony that was in reach of my chickens.

In have tried various methods before plumping for my current one and would not be tempted back to any of them again.

[Jon]

Do you think bigger queens are somehow better at the mating process, maybe better able to fly better in sub-optimal weather, or is it something else? Just very small queens that don't mate well or is it a continuous improvement with increasig size?

Its just the very small ones which seem to have difficulties. Some smallish queens can be very good. The proof of the pudding is in the brood pattern and the size of the brood nest.

[Jon]

I once came drastically unstuck when I removed the queen from a hybrid colony that was in reach of my chickens.

I remember that saga. RIP the unfortunate Cockerel.

I think the key word there is hybrid. A queenless colony from decent stock should not give you any bother at all. The main risk is developing laying workers so you have to keep feeding it with open brood from time to time.
A single queenless colony linked to two finishers can easily produce you 30+ good cells weekly.
I had two queenless colonies running at my allotment most of the summer and two others at the association apiary.