Is there a more appropriate place elsewhere on the internet that might be better suited for questions like this? Do we have termites in this country?Originally Posted by Johnthefarmer
Is there a more appropriate place elsewhere on the internet that might be better suited for questions like this? Do we have termites in this country?
No, we have bees and lots of other insects in this country which are being affected by chemicals promoted as being lethal to colonies at doses which are not lethal on ingestion.
Surely, this is a matter suitable for the SBAI to discuss?
As for the matter of exactly how closely termites are genetically related to bees, I would take a taxonomic punt that bees are closer to termites than aphids, the primary targets of neonics, are, certainly regarding their social arrangements.
If you annually treat a crop with systemic, residual chemicals which debilitate defensive behaviours of insects what do you expect?
Last edited by Johnthefarmer; 22-06-2012 at 04:11 PM.
If we don't have termites in this country then we are unlikely to come into contact, or interact, with pesticides developed to control termites.
Breaking the silence on a forum thread isn't compulsory, and it's impossible to force others give you information they can't provide. I was simply suggesting that a UK-based beekeeping forum might not be the best place to ask your question. It's up to you.
I don't have anything else to offer, but would have thought that maybe "specialists" on perhaps an environmental forum, or an arthropod-related forum, in the country where these products are used are more likely to offer the informed response you seem to want.
I'm not sure if this really helps John, but each year I see my bees throw themselves at oilseed rape with a degree of enthusiasm. They come back coated in pollen, sometimes dripping with the stuff, just as they do from willow for example. Some clean (groom) themselves outside a little before they go in. All the foragers emerging, still excited to get on with another trip, have cleaned up. They groom themselves well inside the hive (presumably they are grooming themselves rather than waiting for other to do it - in fact others can't really do it for them properly). When they emerge you can see that trace of pollen on their faces as the pollen gets stuck down hard between the eyes and they seem to struggle to remove it after visiting Brassicas of all types. I saw that before neonics were used and I see the same thing now.
So I don't see how their behaviour can be altered in a way that affects the ability to groom. The bees mentioned above are those exposed directly to oilseed rape. Some or all will be fuelling with nectar from the crop, either directly or from refuelling bees in the hive and will be burning it up at a high rate.
I know, when I read that stuff on termites years ago I thought that this may indicate a problem. Having closely watched my bees on oilseed rape now for many years it is clear that it was just scare-mongering. You should spend time watching bees working oilseed rape from conventional agriculture. They build fine, they store nectar and honey, they do their waggle dances without any hunching or winking or indicating any confusion at all, they groom fine. How all that then translates to imagined high levels of colony loss in winter defeats me. They can't show no effects when exposed to the largest amount, and show dramatic effects months later from barely-contaminated stores and several worker generations down the line. Just doesn't make sense.
Delayed effect!
It has been made perfectly clear that we are talking about Imidacloprid, a neonicotinoid pesticide used on many crops in the UK and bees are often foraging on systemically treated plants.
The termite killer is called Premise, but its active ingredient is Imidacloprid.
Premise Plus Nature is the trademark for Imidacloprid's mode of action in sublethal doses, where it shows no acute toxicity but leads to the delayed collapse of the (termite) colony.
This also counters Gavin's statements, as beekeepers simply won't notice the presence of the poison while the bees are on OSR, but the (bee) colony can still suffer and die from the suppression of the grooming behaviour weeks and months later.
They won't notice it because it doesn't happen!beekeepers simply won't notice
Why would you get a delayed effect months later yet no effect when they are foraging on the crop and being exposed to higher levels. This is abject nonsense.
Sometimes the studies people draw their information from are carried out in countries where the beekeeping season is very long or continuous.
That wouldn't reflect beekeeping in Scotland where the season is sometimes very short indeed.
Let's say for arguments sake there was chemical which bees were exposed to and it shortened their life by 30% that just means the field bees might die after 4 or 5 weeks instead of 6. That's not life threatening to the hive
On the other hand if something stored in the honey was dangerous to the bees that would be serious but I save them from that by nicking all the honey and giveing them sugar syrup
No I don't think there are residues in honey otherwise human health authorities would step in.
So that leaves pollen and as a couple of people pointed out already that would show by damaging the brood during the brood rearing season
Nobody likes to think their bees are at risk from chemicals etc and as far as I can tell from my own experience living and keeping bees in agricultural farm area there is nothing deadly in the environment which is being routinely used
I don't mind if someone is reading all the research and predicting the demise of the bees I like to hear the arguments from all sides I'm not worried at the moment and I wont be losing any sleep
Last edited by The Drone Ranger; 23-06-2012 at 08:13 PM.
Me neither, and the people reading all the research are those who are not predicting the demise of the bee!I don't mind if someone is reading all the research and predicting the demise of the bees..
The doom merchants are the anti pesticide campaigners and we have already been informed that insisting on evidence is a devious strategy to promote pesticide use.
Found 10 queens with eggs/brood today, 6 of them about 300 yards from a 5 acre field of oil seed rape.
Amazing they found their way back to the apideas.
It does no such thing. Gavin wrote at length to basically point out to the pair of you that you can actually see the grooming taking place when exposure to imidacloprid is maximal. Bees groom normally when they're exposed to the levels of imidacloprid found on oilseed rape. You can't postulate that bee deaths are delayed because the lack of grooming encourages pathogens unless there is also a magic effect that means grooming suppression only takes place after the imidacloprid is mostly gone. And now we're most definitely into the realms of fantasy.
If you ask the local commercial beekeepers that question they tell you that they have to get their rape honey analysed for their supermarket contracts and they find nothing at the normal limits of detection for these tests which is 1 ppb for imidacloprid I think.
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