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Thread: Canadian poisonings

  1. #11
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    LOL at the poor grasp of numeracy.
    I always believed that 10-15% was the normal range for winter losses in the UK so 13-16% is hardly a significant deviation from the normal loss rate.

    I lost one 2 frame nuc out of 19 colonies I had in the autumn. I could have 40 colonies by the end of the summer if I wanted.
    I am splitting colonies to give 5 to my BKA and I still expect to end the year with more than I need.

    This is the key fact to get your head around. (no bold or underline needed.)

    In the past 3 years uk colony numbers in the uk have increased from 40,000 to over 120,000 according to the bbka.
    That is how badly our uk bees are doing. Numbers have tripled.
    Who knows where they came from. Outer space maybe.

    You can make a strong colony into 4 good nucs in August and have 4 full colonies by the following May.

    I know one guy who keeps his bees within 2 miles of me who has had winter losses of 80-100% 4 years on the trot.
    Why would that be when we share the same forage area, pesticides and pathogens.

    Well I have a theory (unrelated to the brontosaurus)
    I treat for varroa with Apiguard and Oxalic acid.

    Last autumn my hapless beekeeping neighbour made up a potion with camomile tea.
    The year before it was a different potion and the year before that another beekilling useless potion.
    The same bloke likes to rant about how pesticides are killing our bees.

    Personally I blame the tea.

  2. #12
    Banned Stromnessbees's Avatar
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    Question Critical thinking?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calum View Post
    Oh dear god, just read your first link. Average colonies/ beekeeper about 4 - means 1 lost colony = 25% losses. Doris I expect that you critically review like any scientist would, the data that you are producing as evidence before you postulate it as fact. You are just opening yourself to attack.
    I have done my critical review, and it convinced me that the neonicotinoid pesticides are to blame for the bee decline.

    You on the other hand, as shareholder of a multinational company that uses these toxins, seem to have problems understanding the connections.
    Last edited by Stromnessbees; 15-06-2012 at 06:00 AM.

  3. #13
    Banned Stromnessbees's Avatar
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    Default Colony numbers upheld against tide of losses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    In the past 3 years uk colony numbers in the uk have increased from 40,000 to over 120,000 according to the bbka.
    That is how badly our uk bees are doing. Numbers have tripled.
    Who knows where they came from. Outer space maybe.

    You can make a strong colony into 4 good nucs in August and have 4 full colonies by the following May.
    What you are demonstrating here is that even major colony losses to systemic pesticides can be compensated by production of nucs at apiaries that are not affected by the pesticides yet and with the help of imports from abroad (... rather than outer space).

    Luckily this seems to be the case, but this situation is far from being normal and sustainable.

    In the past, beekeepers would make 2 to 3 nucs if they had 10 colonies, to cover against winter losses and lost queens. Now it seems to be necessary to take the same amount of nucs into the winter as the number of colonies, as lots of nucs and colonies just dwindle away.

    And just to repeat what was said many times before:
    neonics predispose colonies for secondary infections and parasites, and affected colonies cannot defend themselves against varroa anymore due to their compromised defense systems.
    Last edited by Stromnessbees; 15-06-2012 at 06:06 AM.

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    Banned Stromnessbees's Avatar
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    LOL at the poor grasp of numeracy.
    In the past 3 years uk colony numbers in the uk have increased from 40,000 to over 120,000 according to the bbka.
    Funny way of working. On the one hand you dismiss BBKA statistics when it comes to colony losses, and when it comes to increases you dwell on it.

    Can you provide the link to this claim, please?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stromnessbees View Post
    I have done my critical review, and it convinced me that the neonicotinoid pesticides are to blame for the bee decline.

    You on the other hand, as shareholder of a multinational company that uses these toxins, seem to have problems understanding the connections.
    Odviously not - you do not in fact broach any of the points I raised about the evidence you laid out as proof of unacceptable bee losses in the uk. Instead you have chosen to question my integrity on the grounds of how I invest the profits from my beekeeping activities. You odviously didn't critically assess the links you cherry picked.
    Also
    In the past, beekeepers would make 2 to 3 nucs if they had 10 colonies, to cover against winter losses and lost queens. Now it seems to be necessary to take the same amount of nucs into the winter as the number of colonies, as lots of nucs and colonies just dwindle away.
    Yes thats true - pre and post the spread of varroa. This has nothing to do with saftey stocks in case of posioning. Additionally overwintering 2-3 nucs extra 'in the past' would equate to 20-30% loss expectation. So the 16,x% losses in England that you say are unacceptable, would have been, to quote you 'in the past' quite acceptable.
    If you overwintered2-3nucs in England you should, according to the statistics you yourself presented as proof of the decline of bees in the uk, be able to maintain a steady number of colonies.

    You are tying yourself in knots with your own assertations.
    Last edited by Calum; 15-06-2012 at 07:30 AM.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stromnessbees View Post
    Can you provide the link to this claim, please?
    It was a press release on the bbka website.

    The press and some other people do not understand that there are historic winter losses of 10-15% and they present these losses as year on year as if there were a decline when is fact there is a healthy increase. I don't think a huge number of nucs are imported, mostly just queens and last time I saw the figures it was in the low thousands per year.

    you dismiss BBKA statistics when it comes to colony losses,
    I don't. These are winter loss figures and they don't seem that out of the ordinary to me. I am sure those figures are fairly accurate as they are based on a survey of a random sample of bbka members.
    Last edited by Jon; 15-06-2012 at 09:42 AM.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    2007/2008 2008/2009 2009/2010 2010/2011 2011/2012
    30.5% 18.7% 17.7% 13.6% 16.2%

    So why did the winter loss figure decrease year on year for 4 years from 2007/2008 until 2010/2011 at a time of massive increase of neonicotinoids in the UK.

    These figures do not support your case at all.

    If anything the figures for the last 4 years are very steady varying only from 13.6% to 18.7%
    Last edited by Jon; 15-06-2012 at 09:53 AM.

  8. #18
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    I was trained as a scientist and object to frequent posting of information in order to prove a point of view.

    Firstly that information is often incorrect or irrelevant .
    and secondly repetition of a case does not endear it to me.

    It rather reminds me of the "Repent for the End of the World is nigh"...billboards I used to see in London. They have largely disappeared but the world has not. Strange that.

  9. #19
    Banned Stromnessbees's Avatar
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    Exclamation BBKA calls colony losses 'unacceptably high'

    Repetition seems necessary when minds are shut.

    I obviously need to repeat what the BBKA said about the 2010/11 winter losses of 13.6%:

    This is the fourth consecutive year when BBKA members have reported unacceptably high colony losses...
    I assume the BBKA have good reasons to call these losses 'unacceptably high'.

    This winter's losses were higher still!
    Last edited by Stromnessbees; 15-06-2012 at 09:22 PM.

  10. #20
    Banned Stromnessbees's Avatar
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    In the past 3 years uk colony numbers in the uk have increased from 40,000 to over 120,000 according to the bbka.
    That is how badly our uk bees are doing. Numbers have tripled.
    Who knows where they came from. Outer space maybe.
    Jon, I think you either need to come up with a decent reference for that claim or stop using it.

    These figures should be official, but I can't find them anywhere. Are they correct?

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