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Thread: Was: For readers of Beesource following Stromnessbees outburst

  1. #41
    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    Hi Doris

    Quote Originally Posted by Stromnessbees View Post
    it's now not advisable to feed bees on sugar anymore, apparently it brings on nosema. He recommends switching to readymade beefoods.
    It has been known for a long time that bees prefer invert sugar (Apisuc, Api-Invert, Ambrosia) to plain sucrose. It stores better (can be left in the feeder) and the bees can process it more easily. But plain sucrose is still a fine bee food and I'd be very surprised if Steve said that it is not advisable to feed them plain sugar anymore.

  2. #42
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    There's nowt up wi' sugar. Perhaps we should be on guard for shills who recommend overpriced proprietary products.

    Before I get into trouble I apologise to those who recommend overpriced proprietary products.

    Rosie

  3. #43
    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    I vote Rosie for poster of the week (if there was such a thing). That man has a jolly fine twinkle in his eye.

  4. #44
    Banned Stromnessbees's Avatar
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    Exclamation Neonic threatening the ecosystem of otters

    Quote Originally Posted by Nellie View Post
    I'll also add that, for what it's worth there was no co-ordination, going on. We do talk outside this forum and we tend to agree on a lot of things, unusual in beekeeping circles I know.

    The discussion is there to be had from my point of view. If spamming this and other forums about what a git I am is the worst that I can expect then I'm doing better than elsewhere but I still don't think that it does much to drive the discussion. For the most part I enjoy your input to the forum. I don't agree with everything you say (obviously) and especially not around this subject, if you're going to cite the Harvard study seemingly because it appears to confirm what you want to believe while dismissing completely numbers you don't want to see or subjects you aren't interested in then I think you're out of luck.

    I raised Otters specifically because a) I'm interested in them and b) the Environment Agency specifically cited reduction in pesticides use as the primary cause for their return (with general reduction in pollution and improvement in habitat also cited as important). I left out the qualifier that the major blamed pesticides in question were banned in the 70's and ignored your, perfectly valid in some respects, points simply to use your own line of reasoning against you, i.e. if it doesn't fit what I want to hear then I'm going to discount it.

    Nellie, as you are refusing to look at evidence that neonics kill bees, how about looking at evidence that neonics can harm the environment that otters depend on?

    This EPA memorandum about clothianidin should set your alarmbells ringing:

    http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_s...2-Nov-10_b.pdf

    United States Environmental Protection Agency
    Washington, D. C. 20460

    Memorandum

    Clothianidin registration of Prosper T400 Seed Treatment on Mustard Seed (Oilseed and Condiment) and Poncho/Votivo Seed Treatment on Cotton.

    Nov 2nd, 2010


    It states that

    ... Aquatic ecosystems potentially at risk from a stressor include water bodies adjacent to, or down stream from the treated field and might include impounded bodies such as ponds, lakes, and reservoirs, or flowing waterways such as streams or rivers, for uses in coastal areas, aquatic habitat also included marine ecosystems, including estuaries.


    For clothianidin, the terrestrial ecosystem primarily at risk is the rhizoshpere zone in which treated seeds are planted on the crop field, through contaminated nectar and/or pollen, or due to the seed left (accidental spillage or otherwise) on the soil surface at the time of planting. Seedbound clothianidin may pose risk to aquatic ecosystems through leaching, runoff, or erosion from the crop field. It is noted that for soil incorporated chemicals, or seed treatments, drift is usually a minor component.


    p. 21:
    The major endpoints related to aquatic environments at issue are:
    (a). Direct effects to aquatic invertebrates in the water column via acute toxicity.
    (b). Direct effects to benthic aquatic organisms dwelling in the sediment and/or pore water via acute and/or chronic toxicity

    p.40:
    The data showed that clothianidin significantly reduced survival of mysid shrimp at 0.051 ppm, categorizing the compound as very highly toxic. ...

    p. 50:
    A comparison of EECs, both pore water and sediment bound residues, with the LC50 (mortality) and the NOAEC (sublethal) reveals that the proposed uses have the possibility of acute toxic risk to non-endangered and endangered freshwater and estuarine/marine benthic invertebrates, via runoff especially if repeated uses occur. The acute risk, based on both lethal and sublethal effects, to estuarine/marine benthic invertebrates was independent of the region and the incorporation efficiency when exposure occurs via sediment bound concentrations. Chronic risk to this taxa also shows a similar result. ...
    Last edited by Stromnessbees; 29-05-2012 at 09:29 PM.

  5. #45
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    After three years of asking the same question and despite knowing your fondness for ignoring it in favour of chucking insults I'll ask it again anyway.

    If neonicotinoids are banned, what happens next?

    Point still remains that on current evidence I still believe that Neonics are less harmful to bees and the wider environment than the classes of pesticides they largely replaced. And none of the studies that I've seen so far have convincingly suggested otherwise.

    No one who likes to scream "won't someone think of the bees!!!11one!!1" has ever spelled out what the next stage is if they get their way and ultimately I don't think it matters to them.

    But it does to me, I don't in principle have a problem with removing approval for something on a precautionary basis but I want to know what the effect of that will be.

    There's no silver bullet replacement as far as I can see and no plan past "ban this stuff" so the simple assumption has to be a return to previous pesticides and absolutely bees and much else besides being poisoned directly in quantity again.

    I've said and asked this time and time again over the past 3 years and been threatened, slandered and insulted for my trouble so unless you actually want a discussion rather than an excuse to throw more insults I'm done discussing anything related to this with you on this forum or any other.

  6. #46
    Banned Stromnessbees's Avatar
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    Thumbs up The solution: Integrated Pest Management and organic farming

    Quote Originally Posted by Nellie View Post
    After three years of asking the same question and despite knowing your fondness for ignoring it in favour of chucking insults I'll ask it again anyway.

    If neonicotinoids are banned, what happens next?

    Point still remains that on current evidence I still believe that Neonics are less harmful to bees and the wider environment than the classes of pesticides they largely replaced. And none of the studies that I've seen so far have convincingly suggested otherwise.

    No one who likes to scream "won't someone think of the bees!!!11one!!1" has ever spelled out what the next stage is if they get their way and ultimately I don't think it matters to them.

    But it does to me, I don't in principle have a problem with removing approval for something on a precautionary basis but I want to know what the effect of that will be.

    There's no silver bullet replacement as far as I can see and no plan past "ban this stuff" so the simple assumption has to be a return to previous pesticides and absolutely bees and much else besides being poisoned directly in quantity again.

    I've said and asked this time and time again over the past 3 years and been threatened, slandered and insulted for my trouble so unless you actually want a discussion rather than an excuse to throw more insults I'm done discussing anything related to this with you on this forum or any other.
    The answer is Integrated Pest Mangagement (IPM) or organic farming.

    IPM works on the principle that you only use insecticides where and when needed and that the spraying is done under controlled conditions with minimal damage to beneficial insects like pollinators.

    This way people have produced food for decades, and as long as farmers act responsibly, the damage is way smaller than when systemic pesticides are applied.

    Systemic pesticides are the Kill-All method, they leave nothing alive in the field, while in IPM there can be several years without treatment, therefore lots of wildlife can thrive around and even in those fields. Only at times of increased threats from crop pests will sprays be applied, and not on every field.

    Annual prophylactic seed treatments destroy agricultural ecosystems, while IPM and of course organic farming allow crops and wildlife to live side by side.
    Last edited by Stromnessbees; 29-05-2012 at 04:00 PM.

  7. #47
    Senior Member chris's Avatar
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    Doris, what sort of time scale do you have in mind for implementing your proposal? (education of farmers included)?

    Nellie, could you put this thread in the environment section where it now seems to belong, as I for one like to see beekeeping posts heading this subforum?

  8. #48
    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    I was mulling over doing that but I don't have much time today. I'd like to see the discussion on Doris' appalling behaviour elsewhere on the internet, and her inadequate apology, and the response to that, stay here. The rest of it is the heated, pointless stuff that comes from the clash of a mind slammed shut and people who want to know what is really happening. That can go to the naughty corner. I'll do it myself tonight, or Nellie can do it if he likes.

    The next step for Doris, who sadly seems to have turned most unpleasant and must be making those poor Orcadian beekeepers watching cringe in embarassment, is for her posts to be queued until one of us has the time to read them and decide to let them through, or not. I'll have a chat with Santa's little helpers this evening to see whether we have actually reached that point, or are just very close.

    In case anyone was wondering, the decision was that this forum remains remarkably tolerant. Doris is just very close. But I will persist in trying to tidy up these threads that wandered once again into pesticide territory. It is just that I've been distracted by a large amount of work as a spin-off of the World Potato Congress this week. Spuds even trump bees sometimes. Great to chat to people from so many different backgrounds. I even argued today with one who thought that the bees were all dying due to neonics.
    Last edited by gavin; 31-05-2012 at 07:09 PM.

  9. #49
    Banned Stromnessbees's Avatar
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    Default I sense censorship!

    Quote Originally Posted by gavin View Post
    I was mulling over doing that but I don't have much time today. I'd like to see the discussion on Doris' appalling behaviour elsewhere on the internet, and her inadequate apology, and the response to that, stay here. The rest of it is the heated, pointless stuff that comes from the clash of a mind slammed shut and people who want to know what is really happening. That can go to the naughty corner. I'll do it myself tonight, or Nellie can do it if he likes.

    The next step for Doris, who sadly seems to have turned most unpleasant and must be making those poor Orcadian beekeepers watching cringe in embarassment, is for her posts to be queued until one of us has the time to read them and decide to let them through, or not. I'll have a chat with Santa's little helpers this evening to see whether we have actually reached that point, or are just very close.
    Gavin, has this anything to do with what I wrote here?
    That would be the thread I closed earlier and for a reason. Please don't try to bring closed discussions into a new thread it is closed. Full stop.

    Nellie

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Maybe you want to explain yourself, rather than just gagging me because I point things out that are maybe a bit uncomfortable?

    There are also lots of good discussions to come yet, on the Harvard study and others, which I'll not do on this forum if my posts need to be approved first.

    The choice is yours, but gagging me won't look good![/INDENT]
    Last edited by Neils; 29-05-2012 at 06:00 PM.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris View Post
    Doris, what sort of time scale do you have in mind for implementing your proposal? (education of farmers included)?
    The time to do it is now.
    Farmers have done Integrated Pest Management before, they just need to return to what they were doing, with strict controls for adequate use of all chemical substances.

    Then we will see the fading away of CCD and lots of other bee problems that are caused by the weakened immune system after neonic contamination.

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