(Artificial) Swarming: 2012

[gavin]

I'm splitting this out from the Current Nectar Flow thread as I think this warrants discussion in its own right
Nellie


I'm struggling to understand why ASs seem to be failing this year. Score so far, three of mine and one I closely supervised belonging to a friend, all misbehaved.

Colonies ASed: 4
Colonies with old queen absconding in a swarm after AS: all 4
No. Q cells accidently left behind to induce the swarm: 0 (I'm sure of that, but all made Q cells from eggs/larvae left behind by the queen)
No. sealed or nearly sealed Q cells in colonies which swarmed/absconded at the time of swarming: 0. (Having had a thorough inspection today I'm sure of that.)

I'm starting to question my abilities as a beekeeper, but I'm pretty sure of the above. All four ASs failed to keep the queen at home even though the only Q cells in the box she swarmed from were early stage cells with small c-shaped larvae present today. Accidental killing of the queen might have explained one or two (doubt it though), and for the others either I saw the swarms (one stayed after recapture) or the queen went and the boxes are quieter than they should be.

G.

[Jon]

Gav.
re the artificial swarms you maybe have carniolan/swarmiolan genetics in your stock thanks to all the commercial stuff in your area - making control more difficult.
The other thing which occurs to me is the Tom Seeley stuff about nest selection and reaching the point of no return.
I have a bait box on my shed roof and for 5 days now I have had up to 500 scouts casing the joint. they are not my bees as I chucked flour over them and they did not enter any of my hives.
I doubt if a swarm has been hanging in a tree for 5 days so I am guessing that the scouts are coming from a colony which has the intention to swarm but has not gone yet.
I can picture the scenario where a beekeeper does an artificial swarm or collects the swarm from a bush, but nothing at this point will deter them from the cavity they have been checking out so thoroughly.

The only thing I can suggest is to move the part with the queen several miles away or put a queen excluder under the brood box for a week until they settle down.

People locally have had the same thing happen.

[Trog]

Here's a poser for the experts. Do you think/have you observed that ferals who are accustomed to living in buildings (chimneys or under slate roofs) tend to swarm into same rather than being attracted to bait hives, and are managed stocks more attracted to what they know, ie square boxes, even though they might check out alternatives?

[chris]

I'm no expert, but I know that I've had swarms that didn't come from a chimney that chose a chimney for their new home. I also know that I've managed to attract a swarm into a box that I've placed close to a chimney after seeing scouts exploring said chimney.I've also taken ferals in a bait hive when the possibility of tree hives existed. I think they go for what suits their needs.

[Neils]

My understanding is that scouts when they investigate do follow a broad pattern of "looking around" to determine whether what they are investigating is a suitable home. Whether that pattern varies depending on where the bees currently live I have absolutely no idea. I.e. do bees used to a national look for something national shaped and those in a chimney look for something chimney shaped as a preference?

[Bumble]

I.e. do bees used to a national look for something national shaped and those in a chimney look for something chimney shaped as a preference?

I wondered if it was more to do with height above ground, with those in higher sites seeking new sites at the same level and so on, maybe because they're easier to navigate to?

Maybe shape and size has an influence too, but I'm not entirely convinced that our local bees prefer Seeley's recommended capacity, otherwise they'd ignore chimneys completely, and would rarely end up in a wall cavity.

[Jon]

I doubt if current home has any influence.
Tom Seeley has graphs to show that they start out looking at about 10 possibilities which are whittled away one by one till they are left with the best choice. I think the two biggest factors are ideal height and ideal capacity which is why they love chimneys.

EDIT for bumble. Yea a chimney has a bigger than ideal capacity but I guess they set up home in the top part which does not have great heat loss.

[Neils]

A chimney might be bigger than ideal on the vertical, but I think that's largely irrelevant from a bee's point of view. A floor is a convenience for us and protection for them because we put them a couple of feet off the ground.

[Julian]

[QUOTE=Jon;10623]I think the two biggest factors are ideal height and ideal capacity which is why they love chimneys.[QUOTE]

This may not be the right thread for this but the matter has been raised so here goes…

I know Tom Seeley has referred to the ideal capacity of a new site being 40 litres and that this is a constant with bate hive construction but does anyone know the origin of this figure?

[beeanne]

To sidetrack (boomerang?) back to the start, I AS'd mine on Sat, they swarmed Sun, captured swarm within half-an-hour of them settling, am sure I had Q, hived them Sun night (with syrup, in already-used hive), definitely all there Mon morning (lots of traffic) pretty sure they've all left now (no traffic, but can't check as my own little larvae too small for a bee suit). Other hive has a bit of coming-and-going. Any chance they're all safely in their new home, but just watching the big match on bee-TV or recovering from the hive-warming party?