Can we talk about GM crops?

**Neils** · 01-06-2012, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by gavin

People are now really wound up about GM, at least in the West. I was speaking to some passing Chinese scientists on Wednesday. Their society has quite a different attitude.

But if you disagree with the official view there they shoot you

I think it's also a very middle class concern to have.

Even if you ignore 'frankenfood' headlines GM has a terrible reputation that the industry involved for profit in it has done nothing except encourage. As a society, herd even we're pretty easily spooked when it comes to science (MMR anyone?) and we'll believe a good scare story given half a chance.

I think when we discussed it last you questioned the place of the need to 'sell' the possibility or reality of what can be done but the perception now is both of scary tech mixing rice with jellyfish, of companies suing farmers because the seeds they've collected contain 'owned' genetics and of 'test' varieties being grown in the open where pollen can spread and once pandora's box is opened....

**beeanne** · 01-06-2012, 03:12 PM

It is a great source of scaremongery, has lots of good headline material (Frankenfood etc etc), involves scientists messing about with things that they understand but "we" do not, has big business and big $$ behind it, etc etc. But so what? Just because there's lots of scare-mongering nonsense out there, doesn't mean that anyone who has doubts about it has bought into the scare stories. I don't believe that if you eat GM strawberries then you'll turn green and sart being able to photosynthesize, but that doesn't mean I think GM strawberries are a good idea.

I agree that we are great at jumping onto anti-science scare-stories in the UK, but that doesn't mean that absolutely no sceintific developments can ever be objectionable - because whislt science is simply knowledge and therefore neutral, those developments could be used for ends which are daft, or moraly wrong, or dangerous, or whatever.

**gavin** · 01-06-2012, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by beeanne

I agree that we are great at jumping onto anti-science scare-stories in the UK, but that doesn't mean that absolutely no sceintific developments can ever be objectionable - because whislt science is simply knowledge and therefore neutral, those developments could be used for ends which are daft, or moraly wrong, or dangerous, or whatever.

Of course scientific developments can be objectionable. And of course powerful techniques can be used for morally wrong or otherwise unsafe purposes. However the question over GM as a technique, rather than the questions over it as something big business uses to strengthen its hold on a particular market, what is that about? Philosophical questions on blurring species boundaries, sure, dangerous uses if not properly regulated, or course, but why do people detest it so much so as a technique that even the possibility of tiny quantities of harmless GM pollen in a foodstuff is enough to close markets to certain countries, force people into expensive testing and generally distort markets? The whole thing has gone very far from commonsense.

G.

**The Drone Ranger** · 01-06-2012, 09:16 PM

I want a jellyfish gene in my bees so they can fly in winter
Might make the stings a bit more deadly though

**Neils** · 01-06-2012, 09:21 PM

Because it's seen as "un-natural" and even as I type that I know that most people nowadays have absolutely no concept of how that pack of bacon gets to a supermarket shelf.

Because it's absolutely big business socking it to the small guy at the moment?

Because the vast majority of the coverage on it, isn't pesticide free, herbicide free, high yield food of the future, it's Monsanto et al suing a farmer who never bought their seeds because they own the genetic material in his seeds because the guy next door did buy them and pollination did the rest; and being quite up front that's how they operate?

Looking at the original article I linked to in this thread it's grown plants that emit Aphid alarm pheromone. Cool in some respects a bit creepy in another.

Because "Science" to some extent is ingrained in us as somehow "unholy" and yes, I deliberately chose those words. Look at MMR. Crap science spun by Hislop et al with a large dose of conspiracy on top so that "Of course the government will tell you its safe..." won over reason. Tin Foil hats on a mass scale with very real world consequences.

Originally Posted by Ian Malcom

your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should

**beeanne** · 01-06-2012, 10:16 PM

Once the technique is perfected, it will be used, regardless of anyones' objections on economic, moral, ecological, religeous or wierd lentil-knitting grounds. If you allow GM to be used "a little bit" then it makes absolutely no sense not to just embrace it wholeheartedly.

If it was entirely theoretical then possibly perfecting it would be acceptable, but... it has real world applications which here in the real world will not be used to solve world hunger but will instead be used to make profit. I'm not against profitable big companies, but £££ for the developed world should not be the driving force behind deciding what is right and what is not.

I agree that the "ooh, scary Frankenstein food" stuff is just downright silly, with no basis in logic, science or anything else. However, that's a minority view, just a very vocal, memorable one.

I agree that lots of folk do see GM as going "against nature" or being "unholy" or "blasphemy". But lots of people do believe in God to some extent. If you thought God creates stuff then you probably wouldn't want some bloke in a lab to have a crack at doing the same. It's not a view I hold as I'm not religeous, but if I did believe in God then I probably would think GM was blasphemous, I don't see how you wouldn't.

**madasafish** · 02-06-2012, 02:36 PM

People who do not want GM should follow the logic of their own thinking. Man made manipulation of genes is WRONG:

So:

no antibiotics.
No stents.
Stop eating wheat and all grain crops and all fruit and veg which are the result of man's tinkering with genes over centuries.

And of course, keep no dogs as a pet: and especially NOT pure breed dogs. Crufts is an abomination.

And horse racing is evil..

All human gene manipulation..

As for drinking cows' milk, give it up now...

Anyone who grows grafted fruit or roses or F1 vegetables of flowers is an evil gene altering monster.

Once they die of food poisoning or the first serious wound infection, the rest of us can use GM crops with a clear conscience.