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Thread: Orcadian pesticide discussions

  1. #21
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    Default Orcadian pesticide discussions

    I think the question for the Ban the Neonicotinoid brigade is

    Why Do you hate otters?

    Environment Agency
    The return of the otter to most of England is one of the major conservation success stories of the last 30 years. The main reason for this increase has been the reduction in levels of toxic pesticides, but the improvements in water quality and consequent increase in fish stocks have probably played a significant part.
    Emotive quoting of selective sections of text that back up my arguments at the ready.
    If it's good enough for the goose...

    Just in case that didn't work, here's a picture, look at their tiny human hands!


    Otters I tell you!

  2. #22
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Ratniek's graph
    pesticide incidents uk.jpg

    Neil.
    if you are going to talk about otters, I would like to bring the Capybara to the table or step him up to the plate or whatever.

    http://capybarasthatlooklikerafaelnadal.tumblr.com/
    Last edited by Jon; 01-05-2012 at 12:26 AM.

  3. #23
    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stromnessbees View Post

    Why are you lot so desperately defending these products?

    Hi Doris

    Speaking for myself, I'm trying to make a small stand for rationality, for common sense, for evidence-based decision making rather than gut reaction, belief system stuff. The world needs it and beekeeping in particular needs it. First GM and now pesticides - beekeeping and beekeepers are being used by campaigners. It is time to stop this.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stromnessbees View Post
    Why are you lot so desperately defending these products?

    I'm not, I'm pointing out that It's not a simple or straightforward argument and a lot of the studies linked have serious flaws.

    And I like Otters.

    Banning Neonicotinoids means re-introducing what were in widespread use before them. They were definitely toxic to bees and much else besides so I just honestly don't see banning the neonics making things better compared to how they were before.

  5. #25
    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    Otters!! I just love your lateral thinking.

    A couple of weeks ago I was delighted to find - in the neonic-soaked landscape in which I do my beekeeping, just a few hundred m from my apiary, otter spraint.

  6. #26
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    Lateral? I thought it was an exercise in stating the obvious. Neonics gone, means the pesticides that were in use before come back. Otters didn't live in many rivers because those pesticides tended to run off and kill both the fish and the otters themselves.

    Are they good for bees? Of course they aren't they're insecticides. Are they as bad for the rest of the environment as what we used before? I'd suggest not.

    Just making a point that perhaps it's not as simple, nor straightforward and to be careful what you wish for.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    I saw an Otter in the River Lagan about a mile from where I live just a few years ago. And I had a fox in the garden on Saturday morning. The dog started barking and going buck mad at 6.15 am and when I went downstairs she was trying to get out to a fox which was standing at the end of the patio. You would think the crop dusters would have got rid of all this dangerous wildlife in Belfast by now.

  8. #28
    Banned Stromnessbees's Avatar
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    Thumbs down deceiving graph

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    This graph is extremely deceiving:

    It completely ignores the fact that neonics don't kill colonies in the same way as the older pesticides and therefore doesn't include them in the data.

    Older pesticides cause masses of dying bees in front of the hives and are comparatively easy to detect in the samples.

    The neonic effect is delayed, colonies suffer months after exposure and often seemingly die from other causes like varroa and nosema, while the underlying cause is the low level earlier poisoning.
    Last edited by Stromnessbees; 01-05-2012 at 12:34 AM.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    The neonic effect is delayed, colonies suffer months after exposure and often seemingly die from other causes like varroa and nosema, while the underlying reason is the low level earlier poisoning.
    If you think that is true, feel free to provide some references.
    What do you reckon about Rafa Nadal and the Capybaras?

  10. #30
    Banned Stromnessbees's Avatar
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    The main reason for the return of the otters are the increased water margins enforced by DEFRA.
    The rivers are a lot less polluted now because agricultural activities don't come right to the water's edge anymore.

    Buffer zones is the key phrase there.

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