Cupkit System

[fatshark]

I also had a dabble with a Cloake board this summer. Acceptance rate seemed about the same, but I didn't do enough to be sure there wasn't a difference. One thing that did impress me about using the Cloake board was the density of bees achievable in the cell raiser 'half'. I got the impression that the cells received a lot more attention … certainly when pulling the cell bar out there were many more bees adhering.

I can see the advantage of double entrance floors (front and back) for this as well, no need to reverse a double colony + supers.

[The Drone Ranger]

I always get more starts from a queenless colony than a queenright system.
I sometimes use a starter finisher system, ie start the cells in a queenless colony them move them to a Ben Harden setup the next day.
MBC will be along in a minute to ask me why I don't have a Cloake board set up yet which would save moving the frame.

Jon do you find if you set up the ben harden on the hive where you are taking grafts from the success rate is very much better ?
I think it is, but there are so many other variables and I don't do as much grafting as you and the other queen raisers on the forum, so can't be sure
At the start of the season the queen right system worked like a charm but I was using cupkit cassette in the hive that became Ben Harden raiser

[Jon]

The larvae I graft are usually from a different colony. I guess it is possible that they might find their own larvae more acceptable due to smell or something.
With a queenless colony you can get near 100% started if you graft properly and it is a really strong starter colony with lots of young bees in it. With a queenright colony I usually get 50-60% started. If it is understrength it tends to only start a couple of cells.

[The Drone Ranger]

I must do an experiment and put say 10 home and 10 away on a single cell bar in a Ben Harden setup and see if it makes a difference
Might have to be next season though

One advantage of the cupkit system is you can get larva very young and not roughed up by handling even if you are blind as a bat and have shaking hands

[Jon]

I am blind as a bat but have a steady hand and graft with my specs off to get a close focus.
You do see some differences in where grafts get started.
The grafts at the edge of the frame are much less likely to get started, presumably because the density of bees is lower at the edge.
Sometimes most of the grafts are started on one or other of the two bars as opposed to being evenly distributed ie you get 10 on the top bar and only two on the bottom bar or vice versa. Again, I suspect density of bees and/or heat distribution within the colony.

[gavin]

The fine gentlemen of Fife finally persuaded me recently to try a headband magnifier that had been on offer before but I was too proud to try. What a revelation! Henceforth all my grafted larvae will be young, undamaged and 'the right way up' (if that matters). £28 on Amazon. Lightcraft LED Headband Magnifier.

[busybeephilip]

Would you believe it ! I bought one of these too. Used it once then gave up as with my short sight I could actually see the larvae better.

[busybeephilip]

Henceforth all my grafted larvae will be young, undamaged and 'the right way up' (if that matters).

Apparently right way up does matter, the larvae breathe through one side as the other spiracles are covered in jelly

[Jon]

Apparently right way up does matter, the larvae breathe through one side as the other spiracles are covered in jelly

Is that true Philip or is it just one of those myths passed down from one beekeeper to another. I have never seen any reference to that other than anecdote.
I dry graft so it probably does not matter in that case.

[busybeephilip]

Jon, I read it somewhere and it does have a certain amount of logic to it as the spiracles are lateral on the larvae so if the larvae is lying in brood food/jelly or whatever then it can only breathe through one side. i'll let you put it to the test When I'm using the chinese thing the larvae is usually transferred with some food and remains the same side up, any larvae that get turned over always look very wet and i reject these.

If you dry graft i wonder if larvae can reorientate themselves if the top upper spiracles are blocked. You would know if the larvae had been inverted after grafting as the c shape would be a mirror image of the original position.