I was revisiting the BBKA Course in a Case....

[Neils]

For the beginner's course and was perusing the presentation for Swarming when I noticed this:




I was going to include the notes for the slide, but they don't correspond with the actions being outlined on the slide itself so it seems a bit pointless. That error aside, do we agree that is good advice to be giving to new beekeepers?

[gavin]

Errr ..... that's pretty poor. Almost a guarantee of losing a swarm, and even if the underlying message was correct the PPT is far from clear.

We just dip into Course in a Case for material to help our locally designed beginners' course. I hadn't noticed this 'two queen cell' slide. Used to do that myself, but I've learned my lesson. It only makes sense if you later go in and knock off the poorer of the two. Or perhaps if you follow it up by moving the box with the queen cells to the other side of the old site after a week to bleed off more flying bees and make the remaining bees decide to stay put - but who has space each side of their hives for that?

In my view artificial swarms are best demonstrated using boxes on a table. Apideas are nice and light to carry, full brood boxes are better.

[Jon]

That advice to leave two cells is just plain daft.
Leave one cell and if for some reason it fails to hatch or the queen gets lost, you then recombine the two parts or introduce another queen or queen cell to the queenless part.

[Neils]

Does start to make me wonder whether the source of that advice making such a comeback this year is the BBKA itself. I know it made it into the BBKA news during the summer as well as most of the forums over the course of the year.

I think it also gives a bit more credence to the view that a lot of advice once it appears in "print" somewhere just gets repeated parrot fashion by the next author(s) putting something together on these basis that If it was said there, it must be true. Hence it's not so much that the bees "don't read the books" rather that a lot of books simply contain a lot of bad advice when it comes to bees.

[Rosie]

I think the whole Pagden system is flawed in any case regardless of whether you keep 1 queen cell or 2. I teach a beginners course and include the pagden system just so that the students know what to write in an exam. I then explain methods that actually prevent swarming

Rosie

[Neils]

I don't know, if you've got the space to do it then I think it's pretty simple and works well enough. Once you've got two or more hives on the go then it starts to get unwieldy.

[Rosie]

I find it works better if you've got plenty of drawn comb to put with the queen but even then it fails too often for my liking. The worst part about it is that the books make it sound foolproof and even advise that once done there is no further need to inspect for queen cells. Beginners that attempt it lose swarms and it can affect their confidence.

Rosie

[Rosie]

I just looked again at the slide and noticed that it does say "Stage 1 - Day 1". Perhaps a later stage describes removing a queen cell after they have been sealed and before the first virgin emerges.

Rosie

[Johneboulougne]

I have been keeping bees for 2 years and have just registered for the forum having found this link. I would really like to know what methods you prefer. At our local club we are taught the Pagden method but with the addition of a queen excluder between floor and brood box on box B. This is removed after 3 days.

[gavin]

Welcome, Johneboulougne

There is such a diversity of methods and variants, and many of us would use different ones at different times and in different circumstances. I still use the basic artificial swarm most years, but will do other things too. Three-in-a-box Demarees using the Wedmore split board, and once I have Apideas mastered properly maybe queen rearing will become more controlled and the need for artificial swarming reduced.

The simplest artificial swarm is what we teach our raw beginners. Then they can diversify later once they have some experience. I tend to avoid names like Pagden, Demaree, Snelgrove, Cloak, because presumably at one time these methods were precise variants of other methods. For example, I'm unclear as to exactly what a Padgen is and find the name associated with several variants. I know very well that a classic artificial swarm means splitting a hive and having the queen and fliers in one box, the house bees and the queen cells in another.

The method you teach your locals sounds like the Hooper one which appears to be designed for a weekly inspection regime. The simplest artificial split we promote - easiest for beginners to grasp and perform - is to split the colony when Q cells appear. Keep one good Q cell (usually unsealed) in the old box which is moved aside. Leave one frame with the old queen and no Q cells in a box on the old site and ideally leave empty comb too to avoid congestion. Later (a few days to a week) check that there are no new Q cells in either box. That's pretty much it. No need for a QX under boxes, no need to move boxes again. The only complication I add to that is the desirability of making up a nuc with another Q cell as insurance if the first one fails. Keeping the bees in for a few days with grass helps them stay at home and shaking in a couple of frames of young bees helps too.