Interesting. I was only thinking of overwintering, as opposed to honey production. I read Murray's comments in the thread on beekeepingforum. I wonder is that 20lb increase with his native colonies, the new zealand carnica imports or both.
Interesting. I was only thinking of overwintering, as opposed to honey production. I read Murray's comments in the thread on beekeepingforum. I wonder is that 20lb increase with his native colonies, the new zealand carnica imports or both.
if he changed from AAM to carnica I'd bet on the Carnica being the bigger factor.
During nectar flow I dont think the bees are all that bothered about what sort of box they are in, how prolific they are is probably a bigger factor.
I'd expect bees in a better insulated box to need less winter feed though.
Last edited by Calum; 07-09-2011 at 08:02 AM.
People often make that comment but it's not what I would expect. In my experience the amount of food they eat seems to be dependent on how much brood they rear during the winter and warm hives encourage more brood rearing. It's one of the things I dislike about too much insulation because it gives varroa too much opportunity to survive the winter - especially if oxalic acid is the main varroa treatment of the year.Originally Posted by Calum
Rosie
Last edited by Rosie; 07-09-2011 at 09:28 AM.
I agree. I am seeing a much smaller than usual mite drop and I suspect it may be related to that exceptionally cold winter we had where there would have been a long broodless period. Combine that with well timed Oxalic acid treatment and the mites are in trouble. Several other beekeepers I know have also noted a very small mite drop this year so I don't think it is just my colonies.
Am I reading this right; how will the bees get access to the newspaper? Are you putting the feeder straight on the top bars or a queen excluder?
Jon, Rosie,
Maybe the technique should be to ventillate the hive when there's cold weather due. This will stop or reduce brood rearing. After that - say 3 weeks - Oxalic Acid should be applied. A few days later the insulation should be put back on after the varroa have been zapped. The better insulation will allow for brood rearing again and a strong spring build-up.
The cold weather here last year was in the last week of November and the first week of December. I lumbered out of the house full of Turkey between Christmas and New Year and administered Oxalic Acid - so just about 3 weeks later which was spot on - very little sealed brood I would expect.
I have 1 polyhive at the moment. I'll have to see how it fares over the winter and spring build-up.
Edward P. Jeffree D. SC.
wrote a paper in 1959 with the catchy title
"The Size of Honey-Bee Colonies Throughout the Year and the Best Size to Overwinter"
I wouldn't like to try and condense the information he imparted because the paper needs to be read to get a full understanding of his research.
but he found that "a healthy colony with a late Autumn size of 11,000 bees would lose 18% of its bees by the Spring, while colonies with Autumn strengths of 7,000 and 35,000 bees would lose 36% and 44% respectively.
Similarly, colonies with Nosema disease having late Autumn strengths of 7,000, 14,000 and 35,000 bees would suffer winter losses of 57%, 33% and 51%."
He continues
"There is a further point to notice in considering these figures .It must be remembered that the corresponding sizes would be considerably larger if measured in early Autumn instead of in November, as there is appreciable reduction in colony strengths in the Autumn months."
So one of the conclusions here is that about 11,000 healthy bees in November is the best size for overwintering the explanation of why needs the full paper to be read and my typing finger couldn't cope with that
The Moir library might have a copy
Interesting stuff. i didn't know there was research on ideal cluster size. Couldn't find the paper on Google scholar.
11,000 bees would be about a 4-5 frame cluster I reckon.
I would have thought a wee bit bigger was ideal but that number of bees should overwinter fine.
35,000 is a brood box packed tight to the gills and I don't usually see that in November with my bees.
That number would take a lot of stores to overwinter and I reckon 30lbs is good enough for mine.
Interesting DR. From the peak numbers in the hive in summer, bees automatically reduce their head-count - they don't have to as they could sustain higher numbers on the assumption that they have stores and forage is not too much of a problem - there is a reason for the reduction - to get to an optimum size. I wonder if the cluster size is similar in Langtstroths compared to the smaller UK hives or if the heat-retention capabilities of the hive is used by the bees as a basis for cluster size - they can sense the hive qualities and their size reflects this. Research work for someone if not already done!
A Google search indicates he also wrote this "WINTER BROOD AND POLLEN IN HONEYBEE COLONIES
by EdWard P. JEFFREE, B. Sc.
(Bee Research Department, North of Scotland College of Agriculture, Marlschal College, Aberdeen.)"
Jon a 4 - 5 frame cluster and 6 -7 frames of stores is about what you get in a fully loaded National going into winter.
Going off-thread a little, does anyone know why the BS hive size was devised as it is - why did the Brits decide that they should have The Smallest Hive In The World when the bees were pretty much the same as in neighbouring European countries?
Last edited by Adam; 08-09-2011 at 09:52 AM.
I thinks nationals are about the right size for my colonies.
On the odd occasion I get a colony which needs the second brood box.
I think the people who think the single brood box is too small are keeping Buckfast or Carnica or some prolific local strain, all of which will need a lot more space.
Adam - what size of winter cluster do you get on average? I would say 5-6 frames in November is about average for me although I always get the odd one on 8 or 9.
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