Insulate or Not ?

**Jimbo** · 03-09-2011, 06:41 AM

In my wooden hives I am similar to Jon and Rosie. I place insulation on the crown board but I also place a match stick at one corner of the board to lift it up a little. The reason is I want to keep the hives dry and any condensation from the bees respiration can escape. Warm damp air will rise up and escape and cold outside air will come in from below to give a chimney effect. The cold air will not kill the bees but the damp will. I keep my wooden hives on varroa floors and on wooden solid floors and noticed the varroa floor hives tend to be dryer. I also have poly hives and never noticed any dampness in them. The only difference I have noticed between a poly hive and a wooden hive is the brood nest may not be in the centre of the box in the poly hive that makes me think that the temperature in the poly hive must be more even than in a wooden hive. I also noticed the spring build up is slightly better in a poly hive. The main thing is to have a stong colony that has had a good varroa treatment and has plenty of stores going into the winter

**Neonach** · 04-09-2011, 10:39 AM

How do feral honey bees survive? In my view, what we provide should mimic as closely as possible the optimal natural condition. I've neither researched, read-up, or witnessed how feral bees actually nest, but I'm absolutely certain that nature hasn't been waiting millions of years for man to invent polystyrene to improve the survivability of a species. My belief is that wood is pretty much ideal, and thicker is better than thin, as it will tend to be a bit drier and a bit warmer in bad weather. The thicker it is, the less damp will penetrate, so less need for 'treatment' and thus the wood remains breathable, and thus less ventilation is needed to ensure the hive remains free from damp. I don't believe bees actually like a freezing cold driving rainy gale driving in through the entrance and up through the frames: you can have too much of a good thing. I have a lot of National parts - bases, broods and super boxes, roofs etc - that were the person who gave them to me bought in the late 1960s: they are the original National design (we forget that the current design is the Modified National!) and significantly thicker and heavier (better quality cedar?) and I change over to these for the winter. On the other hand we have to respect the 'survival of the fittest': no good comes from cosseting our bees: unless some are dying off from adverse conditions, the species will stagnate.

**gavin** · 04-09-2011, 11:03 AM

Feral colonies in Scotland are often in buildings and sometimes in hollow trees. Very few must be in the thin-walled wooden structures most of use.

I used to keep mine over-winter with the crownboard feed hole open and no top insulation. My winter losses have been higher than they should be, and I've seen isolation starvation where they had stores but were held in a tight cluster too long to reach them. So I listened to Jon and others and now insulate around (in small colonies) and above with polystyrene.

The other influence on that was listening to a few different commercial beekeepers who have large numbers of both polystyrene and wooden hives. They have seen dramatically different winter survival rates in some winters in the two types, which swung it for me. So the association bees are mostly in polystyrene, and my wooden hives will have polystyrene insulation added especially on top.

**Jon** · 04-09-2011, 12:35 PM

Irrespective of the hive type, they key thing is to have bees adapted to local conditions, the right size of cluster, and bees free from varroa and nosema.
Bees with nosema do not live as long, and a brood box full of bees in September can shrink down to a couple of frames by December and will have little chance of reaching spring in a viable state.
Half my colonies are on open mesh floors and half on solid floors and I cannot see a great deal of difference between the two.

**Adam** · 04-09-2011, 06:46 PM

Jimbo,
I wonder ...Haven't you defeated the object of putting insulation on the top and then making a gap around the edge?

Marion.
There are several things you can use as insulation. Several layers of cardboard would do something and I understand some use carpet. Cellotex or Kingspan insulation seems to be quite widely used. It has a foam inner and aluminium foil sides - used as underfloor insulation and in roofs. Alternatively expanded polystyrene would work which is just a weaker version of the expanded polystyrene that the polyhive makers use. Whatever you can find really.

Even if you scrunch up newspaper and put it in a super above the crown board it will conserve heat. I've done this around contact feeders on occasions and the difference is quite noticable.

**Adam** · 04-09-2011, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by Jon

Irrespective of the hive type, they key thing is to have bees adapted to local conditions, the right size of cluster, and bees free from varroa and nosema.
Bees with nosema do not live as long, and a brood box full of bees in September can shrink down to a couple of frames by December and will have little chance of reaching spring in a viable state.
Half my colonies are on open mesh floors and half on solid floors and I cannot see a great deal of difference between the two.

Jon, Have you noticed any difference with regard to dampness and mould growth inside the hives comparing solid and open floors?

**Jon** · 04-09-2011, 07:13 PM

I haven't really noticed a difference other than mould is more prevalent on the outer frames when you have a small cluster.
A solid floor should be ok as long as water which condenses can run out.

**marion.orca** · 05-09-2011, 05:57 AM

Thanks everybody for all the advice and tips. Well, I think all the feedback has swayed in favour of insulation above the crown board. and although I have experienced the bees chewing up newspaper, I think I will probably use that scrunched up as suggested, around the contact feeder. Out to the bees later today as the forecast for the rest of the week is pretty dismal AND I received my first ever copy of Scottish Beekeeper. I seem to remember some debate on the magazine when it came to " should it be in colour ", - why does it matter ? I've always read text in black and white, and surely thats the important part, nor pretty pictures. I enjoyed it and look forward to the next one.

**Calum** · 05-09-2011, 10:46 PM

The various insulation or lack thereof methods just go to show what a good strong colony will put up with (regardless of which is really better).
I found myself nodding to everything Rosie wrote.

The question should really be what does a weak colony have the best chance on.