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Thread: Best simple methods for raising a few queens

  1. #1

    Default Best simple methods for raising a few queens

    How about cell punching any experts out there ??

  2. #2
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    Hi DR,
    I am not an expert on cell punching but I did see a demonstration/explanation from Roger Patterson at the SICAMM conference in Aviemore. I thought I would give it a try as I think it would be easy and cheaper that using the Cupkit system, however I was unable to source a punch as they are no longer produced. Roger did say that a used bullet case (I can't remember the caliber) could be used. Unable to source spent bullets even on MOD land where my hives are located I decided to try and make my own punches. I cut up a 2 ml plastic syringe which is about the same diameter and pushed it through a spare drawn frame of wax. I sharpened the end of the syringe to help it cut through. It looks as though it may work but I have never had time to give it a serious go. Jon will be along to tell you just to graft. Grafting would just be as cheap. The only advantage to cell punch is you don't touch the larvae

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    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    If you want a really simple method ( even simpler than simple grafting!) Separate your colony into two parts separated by a queen excluder. Confine the queen to the bottom box and put the brood frames above it. They will make queen cells in the top part due to the lack of contact with queen pheromone. Use a frame with a nice queen cell on it to make up a nuc. You will probably find several frames with a decent queen cell - but it is easier to graft - and you get more queen cells and the timetable is of your choosing.

    Roger is the only guy I know promoting cell punching. (and ley lines) I have several of these if anyone wants them, that's punches rather than ley lines. PM me if interested as they need a good home. I got them as part of a bargain bag of queen rearing equipment a few years ago.
    Last edited by Jon; 09-08-2011 at 09:33 PM.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Hi DR,
    I am not an expert on cell punching but I did see a demonstration/explanation from Roger Patterson at the SICAMM conference in Aviemore. I thought I would give it a try as I think it would be easy and cheaper that using the Cupkit system, however I was unable to source a punch as they are no longer produced. Roger did say that a used bullet case (I can't remember the caliber) could be used. Unable to source spent bullets even on MOD land where my hives are located I decided to try and make my own punches. I cut up a 2 ml plastic syringe which is about the same diameter and pushed it through a spare drawn frame of wax. I sharpened the end of the syringe to help it cut through. It looks as though it may work but I have never had time to give it a serious go. Jon will be along to tell you just to graft. Grafting would just be as cheap. The only advantage to cell punch is you don't touch the larvae
    I have been making a punch today and testing it.
    I have attached a couple of photo's
    I'm using stainless steel tubing 10mm with a 0.25mm wall
    and an insert tube 9mm with a 0.5 wall
    The thing i am finding is that the comb which cuts best is the newer wax
    I think for grafting the older comb is best so they both have a place
    THe difference is your eysight can be fairly poor and your co-ordination crap but you will still be able to punch successfully

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    If you want a really simple method ( even simpler than simple grafting!) Separate your colony into two parts separated by a queen excluder. Confine the queen to the bottom box and put the brood frames above it. They will make queen cells in the top part due to the lack of contact with queen pheromone. Use a frame with a nice queen cell on it to make up a nuc. You will probably find several frames with a decent queen cell - but it is easier to graft - and you get more queen cells and the timetable is of your choosing.
    Roger is the only guy I know promoting cell punching. (and ley lines) I have several of these if anyone wants them, that's punches rather than ley lines. PM me if interested as they need a good home. I got them as part of a bargain bag of queen rearing equipment a few years ago.

    Jon I am going to stick a couple of snaps of my prototype here
    Most of the things I have seen so far are brutes( on Dave Cushmams site)
    I am waiting for delivery of an Australian punch to trial (its coming from Germany ??)

    If you dig them out stick on a pic it would be interesting to see them
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by The Drone Ranger; 09-08-2011 at 11:35 PM. Reason: pics

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    If you want a really simple method ( even simpler than simple grafting!) Separate your colony into two parts separated by a queen excluder. Confine the queen to the bottom box and put the brood frames above it. They will make queen cells in the top part due to the lack of contact with queen pheromone. Use a frame with a nice queen cell on it to make up a nuc. You will probably find several frames with a decent queen cell
    Might risk a swarm with that Jon a safer method is to use a Snelgrove board
    That separates the hive as you suggest.
    The bees communicate through a mesh between the boxes
    You bleed flying bees off from the top to the bottom box
    The bees make queen cells in the top
    If you continue bleeding off the bees at intervals they keep one Queencell and remove the rest
    If however you don't bleed off the bees they will keep all the queen cells and you can harvest them

    Now here's a point of contention possibly
    I believe the best queens are reared under the swarming impulse the bees have planned the larva choice feeding and completion
    The Snelgrove board because it doesn't remove the queen still doesn't cause panic queen raising
    THe traditional split method leaves the queenless half of the bees panic raising queens
    The first to hatch will be from the oldest larva (not neccesarily the best)
    In an unmanaged swarmy stock that virgin would leave with a cast and a better queen from a younger larva would take over
    The poorest prospects for a good queen would seem to be from supercedure where the new queen is raised from the larva of a failing queen abieit not in any great hurry
    Grafting and punching therfore will be fairly hit and miss when it comes to quality compared with natural selection (not Darwinian )

    Anybody have any other views

  6. #6
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Drone Ranger View Post
    Might risk a swarm with that Jon a safer method is to use a Snelgrove board
    But this is the basic principle of queenright queenraising and they don't swarm when cells are sealed in the top box.
    I was sceptical the first time I tried it but I have not lost a swarm yet and have done this many times with a number of different colonies.
    I have used at least 6 different colonies as cell raisers this summer alone.

    THe traditional split method leaves the queenless half of the bees panic raising queens
    I believe the best queens are reared under the swarming impulse the bees have planned the larva choice feeding and completion
    There is no panic as the bees are still in direct contact with the queen passing via the excluder. Apparently the cells are made under supersedure impulse rather than emergency conditions due to the lack of queen footprint pheromone in the top box.

    The biggest queens I have seen come from supersedure cells where the entire colony effort is put into rearing just one or two queens.

    Grafting can be hit or miss all right but you graft 20 at a time so can discard cells you don't like the look of or queens which are runts.
    I have seen large queens come out of small cells and small queens emerge from large cells so cell size is only a rough guide.

    Nutrition is a key factor whatever method you use. badly fed larvae are going to produce poor queens.

    And to cap it all after producing your perfectly fed virgin queens you have the lottery of open mating where the best queens can fail to mate properly, turn into drone layers, or mate with the wrong sort of drones.

    Mine are still flying and mating as I had another half dozen start to lay since the weekend. the theory is that the later matings are more likely to be with native type drones as the others get kicked out earlier or wont fly at lower temperatures.

    The proof will be in the pudding, I mean the morphometry I plan to do in October and November.
    Last edited by Jon; 10-08-2011 at 10:38 AM.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    But this is the basic principle of queenright queenraising and they don't swarm when cells are sealed in the top box.
    I was sceptical the first time I tried it but I have not lost a swarm yet and have done this many times with a number of different colonies.
    I have used at least 6 different colonies as cell raisers this summer alone.
    Well I'll definitely give it a go once I get my cell punching underway
    Heavy rain here today again and I have to open a hive (only one) wher the queen is frame trapped

    I read in the Pied Pipers Guide to Beekeeping
    or was it "Breeding Better Bees" Milner and Dews

    There were experiments with shutting up the hives and only letting drones and virgins fly at times of day when rival drones were not around
    Presumably using queen exluder at the entrance.

    Course these are the guys that brought us "Breeding for Resistance" (otherwise known as antisocial behaviour and losing your bees)
    And encouraging Feral colonies (also known as alienating the general public)

    Ps. "don't mention the war I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it"

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Hi DR,
    I was unable to source a punch as they are no longer produced. Roger did say that a used bullet case (I can't remember the caliber) could be used.
    Hi Jimbo PM me an address and I will send you a bit of stainless tube I think is suitable (your message box is full by the way)

    There is another interesting method the Alley method which I think could be developed into something simpler

    Here's a link to a description for anyone interested
    http://www.beeclass.com/DTS/Alleyqueens.htm
    Last edited by The Drone Ranger; 10-08-2011 at 11:14 AM. Reason: found web link

  9. #9

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    Jimbo and any other interested experimenters hop over to this link and you will see a set of photo's showing the home made punch in action.

    Any comments welcome or any problems with the link please post

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1.../edit?hl=en_US


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1qI17v29jc
    Last edited by The Drone Ranger; 10-08-2011 at 11:24 PM.

  10. #10
    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    Well done DL, I was thinking of offering SBAi server space for your file but you have a way round it. Nice set of pics. Grafting is really easy though - stop by at the association apiary and I'll show you (may have to be next year now).

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