bees sting neighbour

[AlexJ]

Folks, if we go back to my original post (probably should have started a new thread)

While going off tack slightly (though I thoroughly enjoy the debates on the subject).... Is it not the case that all this talk of Amm superiority is largely academic in the face of a somewhat ill defined and confused national breeding landscape? Unless of course the SBA has a breeding strategy (including increasing colonies and genetic characteristics) of which I am unsighted....

What is never articulated is how the SBA or local associations plan to work together to develop a breeding programme to achieve the aim of making a more genetically ‘pure’ Amm bee dominant in Scotland; if indeed such a goal is ever likely to be achievable?... Until a co-ordinated approach to the subject is taken we will go round in circles leaving small pockets of well motivated and first class beekeepers breeding bees that certainly seem to suit their needs and which may, or not, be taking them closer to an Amm type (if that's what we should be aiming for).

Trog you make my point exactly, as Dews and Milner quote in Breeding better Bees:using simple modern methods

Ruttner (1988) says: "Experience over many years has shown that lasting results can only be obtained from breeding with a pure race, certainly not from breeding with repeatedly crossed (mongrel) local bees."

The BIBBA 'Bee Improvement' Summer 2011 Number 36 reinforces this point of view in discusing core aims and objectives.

But that appears to be a fact of life in current beekeeping circles, and I have nothing but respect for those 'grandees of the craft' (cue images of strange men in aprons and gauntlet gloves) who have maintained bee stocks over many years in the face of considerable environmental and disease factors. I'm in the same boat as everyone else in terms of increasing/maintaining stock - I'll breed from what I have, and what I can get my hands on locally (unless I travel and there's another debate).

That being said, unless there is a co-ordinated approach to the subject we will go round in circles. Perhaps the next time we have debate the merits of Amm we should include the role of national/local organisations more closely?

[The Drone Ranger]

I read "Breeding the Honey Bee" by Brother Adam recently and found it very informative.

In particular he says in his extensive experience of cross breeding any bees crossed with AMM drones are likely to exhibit "bad temper"
This apparently disappears in the next generation(s)

I'm glad I don't have someone flooding my area with AMM drones as I have spent years selecting for gentle bees and wouldn't welcome having to start again

[Jon]

The same thing would happen with any introduced drones from AMM, Carnica or Ligustica due to heterosis - which is why beekeeping neighbours have to work together if they are interested in bee improvement.

[gavin]

I'm glad I don't have someone flooding my area with AMM drones as I have spent years selecting for gentle bees and wouldn't welcome having to start again

It is my ambition to flood your area with gentle Amm drones, DL. There are already (and have been since pre-history) Amm apiaries in your immediate area. I could name the owner of one now but wont. He still has bees that morphometry suggests are purish Amm, but one colony from his apiary this summer which found its way to a beginner I'm helping was a nightmarish swarmy carnie stock, entirely unsuitable for a beginner not expecting his bees to swarm as they built up on this year's queen at the end of July.

Three of four swarms I've helped collect this summer looked like Amm, one was carnie-ish. With this background level of Amm in the area, what is the point in trying to breed from stock that you think is incompatible with that?

[The Drone Ranger]

The area where the British Black bee can be found is quite large it seems

Scource SICAMM

Doesn't seem to include Scotland ??

[Jon]

So what do you reckon is the bee native to Scotland? Buckfast?

Maybe some kind of white polar bee, I mean bear!

That map is claiming that AMM is found mainly between the 15c to 20c range.

[The Drone Ranger]

It's not my map Jon so I can't say for sure.
Its from the international AMM society.
Perhaps what they mean is that Scotland is not considered part of AMM's normal range.

I saw a grey wagtail in my garden this summer but by all accounts he was outside his normal range -- just visiting so to speak.
Still putting honey in jars although it's late

[The Drone Ranger]

It is my ambition to flood your area with gentle Amm drones, DL.

Three of four swarms I've helped collect this summer looked like Amm, one was carnie-ish. With this background level of Amm in the area, what is the point in trying to breed from stock that you think is incompatible with that?

I thought AMM didn't swarm bet when you cut their wings off they are something exotic

[gavin]

These ones haven't had that pleasure yet. Sssshh!! Don't tell them!

[Trog]

Grey wagtails are common enough here, Droney, I think. What's their range supposed to be? Saw a wagtail belting across Tobermory Bay when fishing the other night - too fast to observe the type - chased all the way by a sparrowhawk. You'll be please to hear the wagtail made it into thick cover!