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Thread: bees sting neighbour

  1. #11

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    8.50 this morning opened hive where bees were already working furiously No smoke required
    Queen is yellow with frayed wings (old) laying well
    She got that way because she hasn't swarmed
    I had her frame trapped for 24 hours
    No stings, no agro, no nothing.
    The hive gave me honey this year
    I would put these bees in my neighbours garden never mind my own
    Hybrid queen no problem

    No Amm suppliers probably because they would be prosecuted under the trade descriptions act for selling hybrid bees
    There are a lot of fantasist around who like to think they are bringing back AMM but they are actually just on the latest bandwagon.
    Some serious bee breeding going on as well good luck to them
    There is loads of hypocracy round this subject of bee pure breeds mostly I just see self interest where if a group trying to breed a particular bee type are failing its always because of other non participating uncooperative antisocial ignorant beekeepers in the area rather than the participants
    Really the problem is one small group of fanatics BIBBA trying to dominate and determine the actions of all other beekeepers.
    If the arguments for Amm stood up then people would not be banned for disputing them

  2. #12
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Drone Ranger View Post
    If the arguments for Amm stood up then people would not be banned for disputing them
    New to me that someone has been banned for disputing facts about AMM. Must have missed something.

    Hybrid queen no problem
    Some hybrids are fine but a lot are difficult and it is next to impossible to breed true.

    No Amm suppliers probably because they would be prosecuted under the trade descriptions act for selling hybrid bees
    If you mean there is some introgression of genetic material from other bee sub-species I am sure you are right. There has always been some crossing at the boundaries of the natural range of the various honey bee sub species and in addition there is 150 years of import history in the UK and Ireland which will have left its genetic footprint.

    But there is a huge difference between crossing bees which are perhaps 95% AMM DNA with AMM type drones and the type of hybrid you get crossing Ligustica and Carnica or Carnica and AMM. That is the type of hybrid which produces your uncontrollable bee especially in the F2 generation where the DNA of the queen herself is completely mixed up between the two races.

    If you read the Moritz paper I posted a link to a while back you will see that the German Carnica contains some AMM DNA but these at least breed true due to a 50 year programme of careful selection combined with II and offshore island mating stations.

    Really the problem is one small group of fanatics BIBBA trying to dominate and determine the actions of all other beekeepers.
    I have a lot more time for BIBBA than some of the importers who are interested in turning a fast buck, no more no less. One of those you mentioned in a previous post has a terrible reputation for dodgy practice and disease control - sending nucs with varroa to varroa free areas in Scotland for example.
    Last edited by Jon; 06-08-2011 at 12:01 PM.

  3. #13
    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Drone Ranger View Post
    Hybrid queen no problem

    .................

    There are a lot of fantasist around who like to think they are bringing back AMM but they are actually just on the latest bandwagon.
    Some serious bee breeding going on as well good luck to them

    .................

    Really the problem is one small group of fanatics BIBBA trying to dominate and determine the actions of all other beekeepers.
    If the arguments for Amm stood up then people would not be banned for disputing them
    Well, hybrids *can* be nice bees, and pure Amm can be horrible. What is happening is that highly bred stocks (Buckfast, Italians, Carniolans) are being traded but our native bee has not had that investment in breeding. Government will not do it but at least some amateurs are willing to try. The prize is greater stability of local stocks, better bees, better beekeeping and the conservation of something native that is at risk otherwise.

    Has anyone been banned for disputing the arguments made for Amm?

    I've heard this hostility to BIBBA before but the BIBBA folk seem to me to be reasonable, tolerant people. Conservation is mainstream these days so I don't think that calling BIBBA fanatics is right. Maybe we can all keep open minds and share experiences?

  4. #14
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam View Post
    Quote "I would cull any queen which produced followers immediately as it has to be the worst trait in a bee colony".

    This is not a recomendation now! A queenless colony may well be worse.
    meant to say cull and replace, not leave queenless!

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by gavin View Post
    I've heard this hostility to BIBBA before but the BIBBA folk seem to me to be reasonable, tolerant people. Conservation is mainstream these days so I don't think that calling BIBBA fanatics is right. Maybe we can all keep open minds and share experiences?
    Ok here's my experience

    Whenever anyone mentions Black Bees they like to attach the "British" part as in "British Black Bees" as if that is some specific race of bee only present in the UK

    They then like to describe these bees as Apis Melifera Melifera the bee that has been here since the Ice Age


    They will then tell you how superior that bee is to all others in the World

    Finally when you ask them if they have any they will say "no"

    But, because they want them, this infers some superior status on them as beekeepers.

    Anyone reading "Breeding Better Bees" by Milner and Dews can't fail to notice how they constantly use words like "pure" and "mongrel" to establish their prejudice beliefs in favour of AMM
    It is a basis for a stupid kind of elitism .

    The same attitudes and words are used all the time even here on this (relatively) tolerant forum.

    If you have bred pure AMM bees then good luck to you.
    Anyone who wants to keep hybrids good luck to them

    The problem comes when you haven't bred anything better than anyone else but still feel the need to evangelise. I don't.


    Its not a co-incidence that Eric McArthur was banned after getting hot under the collar in a thread about Amm and inbreeding people do get too fanatical on both sides of the arguments
    Personally I think that it's wrong to ban someone because at the end of the day if people don't want to respond to their comments /posts then its not compulsory so they an just ignore them.
    You know that's my opinion already??
    Last edited by The Drone Ranger; 06-08-2011 at 11:39 AM. Reason: Banning

  6. #16
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    It is rare for anyone to get banned for expressing an opinion, but frequent to get a ban for being personally abusive to other forum members especially if the other forum member happens to be the forum moderator! I have seen this happen on loads of internet forums and the person who is banned for abuse runs off and claims they were banned for holding an opinion on pesticides or imported bees.
    Personally I enjoyed most of the arguments with Eric although his Achilles heel was resorting to personal abuse when the going got tough.
    I think some people just get to a stage in life where they get angry when challenged.
    This forum has been very good natured and had very few spats compared to any of the others I have posted on. The Irish forum is also good natured but has terrible forum software.

    Whenever anyone mentions Black Bees they like to attach the "British" part as in "British Black Bees" as if that is some specific race of bee only present in the UK
    Certainly not part of Micheál Mac Giolla Coda's discourse. He wouldn't thank you for inferring that either him or his bees were British. You do hear people talking of 'Welsh Blacks' as well.
    Last edited by Jon; 06-08-2011 at 12:10 PM.

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    Certainly not part of Micheál Mac Giolla Coda's discourse. He wouldn't thank you for inferring that either him or his bees were British. You do hear people talking of 'Welsh Blacks' as well.
    LOL!

    Point taken
    Re sendings offf surely a Red Card doesn't have to mean a lifetime ban

  8. #18

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    While going off tack slightly (though I thoroughly enjoy the debates on the subject) , I do sometimes think we can’t see the wood for the trees when discussing Amm genetics. Is it not the case that all this talk of Amm superiority is largely academic in the face of a somewhat ill defined and confused national breeding landscape? Unless of course the SBA has a breeding strategy (including increasing colonies and genetic characteristics) of which I am unsighted.

    As a second year beekeeper in Fife I see no great effort in the Kingdom to breed bees with traits linked to some local or national standards, never less seeking to move towards an Amm type. Over the past 18 months I have attended seminars and workshops which have been very useful in teaching queen breeding and colony increase. These are usually accompanied by discussions on the merits of Amm.

    What is never articulated is how the SBA or local associations plan to work together to develop a breeding programme to achieve the aim of making a more genetically ‘pure’ Amm bee dominant in Scotland; if indeed such a goal is ever likely to be achievable? Albeit, there is ad-hoc advice on various sites regarding setting up bee breeding groups.

    I started off with a swarm which I have now split to a total of 3 colonies and have had to do so without access to a local breeding programme that seeks to breed bees (of any kind) that are beekeeper/public user friendly. If I find myself in the same circumstances next year I will look to travel to have queens mated/sourced.

    Until a co-ordinated approach to the subject is taken we will go round in circles leaving small pockets of well motivated and first class beekeepers breeding bees that certainly seem to suit their needs and which may, or not, be taking them closer to an Amm type (if that's what we should be aiming for).

    ps

    I agree with The Drone Ranger - perhaps we should review 'sendings off' after a while with a view to reinstating posting rights. Perhaps something akin to a ‘three strikes and your permanently out’ policy could be implemented.
    Last edited by AlexJ; 07-08-2011 at 10:18 AM.

  9. #19
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    I have read on various forums that it is silly to keep bees in domestic gardens. Perhaps someone should tell ALL the UK Bee Keeping Associations as the increase in beekeepers comes largely from people intending to keep bees- in their gardens.

    As for AMM bees, I have listened and read about them, can't buy any queens so as far as I am concerned it is all blue sky and words.

    And as we all know, words are cheap.. After the last winter, many English, Welsh and Scottish keepers were queenless. How many suppliers of AMM queens were there to fill the losses?
    Answer: none.

    Says it all really.

  10. #20
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    We kept two colonies in a narrow, but long, garden in hampshire, facing out over a field. They stung a horse on the nose once, when he stuck said nose into hive to see what was happening. Otherwise they never bothered anybody and we could stand by the hives unmolested.

    Here we have the colonies (different ones, obviously) in our (large) garden and they don't bother us or anyone else. A lot of it's down to temperament and the beekeeper knowing when to leave them alone. If we have just one bee following us more than 6 yards, that's them in a bad mood. We've bred from the more docile colonies but I have to admit the shorter-tempered ones are the best honey-gatherers!

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