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Thread: bees sting neighbour

  1. #81
    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    Here's my opinion.

    Totally closed population, long-term (think Colonsay). Maybe 30. As each founder queen brings a lot of diversity (including stored as sperm) then a much smaller number of founders would work as long as they were unrelated and as long as you go to a larger population in one step. It is the queen to drone step that really whittles down your genetic diversity.

    In a population that can breed to some extent with similar bees in the same region, maybe 6-10. That breeding may be by outcrossing with local drones (assuming that your neighbours also have the same kind of bee, an increasingly rare occurrence) or, in a more isolated situation, by exchange of some stocks on a regular basis.

    Of course some progress can be made by beekeepers with fewer stocks, but cooperation regionally is much better.

    Another factor is that the more bees you own the greater their dominance of the local drone population. And the greater likelihood that you can breed in the way you wish.

    G.

  2. #82
    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    Ruttner's map of bee races has a line that encompasses all of the UK in the mellifera area. Today you can find free-living Amm in isolated and not-so-isolated crofts (some disused) in the coastal fringes of Wester Ross. That suggests that they were native over a large area. Also healthy populations of ferals in W Stirlingshire and several reports in Perthshire.

  3. #83
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    And another way to avoid inbreeding is to bring in an unrelated queen every year and do your grafting from that.
    Swapping the odd queen among groups breeding the same race of bee should minimise the inbreeding risk.

    There is a lot of worry in some quarters about inbreeding - but how often does anyone actually see pepperpot brood due to diploid drone removal, as opposed to say varroa damage and removal of pupae which leaves a gap in the brood pattern?

    I think it is only likely to be a big issue in very specific situations such as closed island populations with a small number of colonies.
    This was all discussed at length in the 'another puzzle' thread.

  4. #84

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    Thanks guys

    Sorry I missed the other thread

    Its just theoretical I suppose I'm just trying to figure out how it could be done.

    Most of the people writing about breeding do imply very large numbers of hives are required.

    So I am thinking at the moment that there can't be many suitable locations because you need a fairly high degree of isolation, large numbers of unrelated stocks (of the required breed) and sufficiently rich foraging to support the bees.
    Plus unless you do the testing for honey gathering elsewhere which means moving large numbers of hives there needs to be a main honey flow which would generate large enough surplus to differentiate between good and poor stocks.

    The only people who might be in a position to tackle this would be commercial beekeepers.
    Might it not make more sense just to provide a subsidy to them to use and breed their own queens?
    After all there would be little or no oil seed rape without subsidy

    Just a thought

  5. #85
    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    Most of the commercial beekeepers are focussed on production (or commercial survival) rather than gentle bees or conservation. OK, at least one now has switched from being an inveterate mixer and hybridiser to an enthusiast for a gentle pure-breed but one which is incompatible with the stocks that have been here forever.

    The model that I hope we will follow is to have an isolated site for mating the core stocks that a few folk will collaborate to operate (site identified and agreed), and association apiaries for additional queen raising and preliminary testing, plus a network of contacts to try out the bees, report back, and contribute favoured genetics back into the central effort. I could write out a diagram with boxes showing the different elements, but I'm sure the description will suffice. All on a shoestring, mostly self-financing and operated by a few individuals who are also otherwise busy with careers, their own bees, local and national association duties and perhaps the odd madcap scheme. That is probably the way it has to be. There is no point looking to national organisations for leadership as Alex suggested because this will only work when individuals make it happen. As it happens the individuals are all SBA members and some are active at senior levels but the drive doesn't come from an agreed national policy. Such a thing might weaken the SBA as there would be members who would not agree with the direction taken.

  6. #86

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    Hi Gavin,

    Would the Scottish Government not be sympathetic to subsidy if the SBA lobbied them ?

    I do like the general thrust of your plan but once the bees you produced were distributed you end up with a similar situation to someone who buys a queen of a known pure breed.

    Trying to maintain the type would involve avoiding any open mating of subsequent generations, locking the beekeepers into either replacing the queen with another bred by the group or bringing virgins to the mating area every year ?

    I am not saying that won't work in a limited way but it would never pave the way for the return of AMM bees other than the cross bred bees we already have

    There is nothing wrong with enthusiasts breeding the bees they fancy keeping.

    It's also important though, not to become so enthusiastic that criticism of the bees in Britain becomes habitual simply because they have no pedigree in their breeding.

    30 colonies sound like a reasonably easy target to reach for a breeding program but presumably they have to be 30 with queens of the correct type.

    Is there any evidence for the often mentioned 'selective mating preference of queens' where they are supposed to by some mechanism avoid mating with drones of their own close type ?
    That might protect against loss of genes in open mating in a protected area.

    If I was commercial beekeeper honey gathering would be my top priority followed by non swarmy (less management req)
    Of course early build up is a high priority at the moment but if the oil seed rape subsidy disappears that would change rapidly

    I was at the Verdant works in Dundee today it was very good
    In the early 70's I was able to see a real Jute mill in action
    Fantastic stuff all gone now and the few eco bags etc. which are made now will never bring it back again
    Even though it would be much better for everyone to be using an environmentally friendly renewable like jute
    Last edited by The Drone Ranger; 25-08-2011 at 06:33 PM.

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