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Thread: Queens-to clip or not to clip

  1. #1
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    Default Queens-to clip or not to clip

    What are the advantages/disadvantages of clipping queens?.Is this just a fashion or fad?.

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    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    Jon will be along soon to tell you why it is a good idea. I'm almost convinced even though I've never clipped a queen yet.

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    I'm firmly in the no clip camp. First and foremost is that I don't like damaging my queen, I don't see why they should pay the price for my failings and I very much see my colonies swarming as a failing on my part.

    While I get all the reasons to do it I don't like the "campaigning" that goes with it, from some quarters, that basically says you're an irresponsible beekeeper if you don't clip your queens.

    If I go to more colonies than I have then maybe I have to take a more pragmatic approach than I do currently. But I think for the average hobby beekeeper queen clipping simply isn't necessary.

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    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    My main reason for not doing it has been uncertainty handling queens. In the last couple of years though I've started just picking her up. On Friday evening I grabbed a queen by both wings, she curled her abdomen down and struggled so I just dabbed paint on her thorax as she was. After a couple of minutes when I placed her back on the frame she just continued looking for empty cells. I don't think that a queen would even notice that a third of a wing had been cut off. The dod of paint on the back is probably a greater imposition.

    I'm surprised that people are campaigning and implying irresponsibility. Beekeepers can be a strange lot.

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    Senior Member Mellifera Crofter's Avatar
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    I have some hives at the croft and some hives with a friend in Aberdeen. I regularly get advice from two people - the one is for clipping, saying you haven't lost half a hive and you can now make increase from that hive; the other is against it saying it will take a long time before the hive has recovered from the loss of a queen.

    At the croft my mentor (one of the two people) clipped one of my queens' wings - and I've just discovered that she's gone. I began to suspect it last week. I now have a full hive rather than half a hive - but the new queen still needs to emerge and to get mated, so it will take about a month or more before she can start laying and even longer before those bees are adults. How does that delay compare with the loss of half a hive (assuming I didn't spot and catch the swarm)? I couldn't make increase either because the three emergency swarm cells were so close together that all I could do was to destroy two of them and leave one.

    In Aberdeen I myself clipped the queen's wings (and my hands were shaking with anxiety). I reasoned that I'm not there to keep regular checks on the hive and I thought risking creating a swarm in a suburb is not very friendly. Fortunately - she is still there and I've just made an artificial swarm from her hive so I don't think I'll lose her.

    Like Nellie, I don't want to hurt my queens and I don't think I'll easily do it again at the croft - but I may do so in Aberdeen if I continue to keep a couple of hives with my friend.

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    My personal preference is to clip my queens. Initially, this was because as a beginner a few years ago my mentor, who was hugely experienced with a large number of colonies advised me to. Like Nellie though I do feel it a failure on my part as a beekeeper if my bees swarm. I seem to have particularly swarmy bees and even though with more experience I can read the colony and what is happening so much better now, they still, despite my best efforts with AS etc are sometimes determined to swarm no matter what. This year has been a perfect example when even the nucleus's have been trying to swarm. This way I don't lose my field bees. I think however it should be down to personal preference. What is right for me clearly isn't necessarily going to be right for someone else and that is fine by me. My method for clipping is to use the little press on cage as I don't like to pick up the queen in case I damage her by handling her. I also only clip queens in the spring so any queens born this year will not be clipped until next year. It works for me and my bees ( usually)!
    Last edited by Beejud; 10-07-2011 at 11:44 AM. Reason: Clarification

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    I don't and won't clip queens. They are not easily replaced here. I might, just might, start marking them, not because I can't spot a queen in the hive but so that it's easier to spot quickly if a caught swarm is one of mine, rather than someone else's or ferals. They'll not be marked in a standard colour, though!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gavin View Post

    I'm surprised that people are campaigning and implying irresponsibility. Beekeepers can be a strange lot.
    Oh I've been told on forums and in person that my not clipping queens is irresponsible, swarms in chimneys blah blah blah. Not by people who's opinion I greatly value so I don't pay a huge amount of attention.

    For clarity I don't believe that the actual wing clipping itself "hurts" the queen in any meaningful way, but I am wary of causing additional accidental damage and where I've expressed an opinion that clipping is cruel it is in reference to basically sacrificing the queen as a result of my inattentive inspections. I accept the trade off for not clipping is basically religiously inspecting weekly, especially during the swarming season.

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    I clipped queens for the first time this year. I clip them using a plunger cage and have probably done about 15. When the queen walks backwards the wings sticks out between the mesh and you just take off the tip of the wing. You never have to touch her. As someone said above, there is more chance of a problem with marking as you can get paint on the antennae or have the queen balled if the bees do not like the smell of the paint.

    I had a swarm 10 days ago and the clipped queen had made her way back inside when I looked two hours later. This happens quite a lot. You also find the queen on the ground in front of the hive with a little knot of bees and can put her back in.

    I have not lost a clipped queen yet, but if I did I would immediately requeen with a spare queen or would split the colony up to make nucs with spare queens or I would combine it with a neighbouring colony, depending upon the time of year and what I wanted to do.

    I used to argue against clipping but you can relax about not losing half the bees as long as you do your checks at least once a fortnight. My beekeeping completely changed when I realised that swarming was not inevitable and you can pretty much control it if you are doing proper checks. Last year I didn't clip and I didn't lose any swarms, but I reckon I was pushing my luck. With valuable queens I am careful about weekly checks.
    If you clip you could lose a valuable queen but if you don't clip you could lose the same queen along with 20,000 of her progeny.

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    Jon

    I have never tried the plunger cage you referred to but it sounds from your description as though it might be an easier/ safer method for clipping the queen. At the risk of sounding a complete dummy, do you have to pick the queen up to put her in it. I have always been nervous about handling the queen in case I damage her or cause the bees to reject her. I suppose if you tried to get her to run into the cage off the frame you may end up with a few "extras". With my present method I have to be very patient and wait for the right moment when she reverses and a wing tip appears and you are constantly brushing off the anxious attendants so it is not a task I undertake lightly or if in a hurry. Always keen to learn something new or better.

    As I read this for spelling errors it occurs to me that some may question my thought process " not wanting to cause the bees to reject her" then I daub paint on her and cut part of her wing off! Bit of a contradiction there! Doh!

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