Co-op Imports New Zealand Bees

[Jon]

The issue for me is not a gripe with commercial beekeepers as we all have a lot to learn from best practice.
You only have to read beekeeping forum to see that the bulk of the useful information on there comes from Murray Mcg, Hivemaker, Dan B and and a few other commercial beekeepers.
But irrespective of anything else, the risks associated with imports are a threat to all of us, to local breeding programmes and more worryingly the disease risk.
And the disease risk is not uniform.
Importing packages or nucs is a far bigger risk than importing a queen with a couple of attendants.
Importing from outside the EU is a bigger risk than from within the EU and I don't buy the argument about the tight phytosanitary controls in a place like NZ.
Bees are tested for nosema, trachael mite, foulbroods, but not for a range of viruses some of which may be unknown. (due credit to Donald Rumsfeld and his unknown unknowns)
What about Jerry Bromenshenk's work where he has linked an irridovirus to CCD? He is due to publish an update on that work shortly.
He may or may not be correct with that hypothesis but are we sure that bees coming in here are free from a virus like that which we likely don't have yet in the UK or Ireland.
Nearly every bee problem we have was brought in at some point by a beekeeper and these problems are not trivial. varroa first appeared in Ireland in 1998 on the Sligo Leitrim border, ie not at a port, so the mites were most likely driven here when someone brought in a few colonies in the back of a van. And every beekeeper in the country has had to radically change their beekeeping practice because of the behaviour of one individual.

Anyway, I cannot see how it is a viable business model if commercial beekeepers have to constantly restock with packages from outside the UK.
Losses vary from year to year, and this winter is particularly bad, but surely it is possible to manage commercial stocks in a way that is sustainable numbers wise without constant imports. It's not as if the imports are free.

[The Drone Ranger]

I wonder if anyone had time to check out the You tube links in my earlier post #37
How do feel about the way they mass produce queens compared to how we do it here?

If we redefined Local to mean within Scotland then perhaps someone would pick up the challenge of queen breeding commercially.
At the moment Beekeeping associations are saying "don't buy bees that are not local" and "make sure its this years queen"
Would bee farmers make good bee breeders ?

[Jon]

Hi DR. I saw your links.

Would bee farmers make good bee breeders ?

It is a separate business. In the US there are several specialist queen breeders and most of the bee farmers there buy queens or import packages when they need them. If you are going to make a business of queen rearing I reckon you need to be really focused on it.

[gavin]

Just so's everyone knows, Feckless D must get his name because he's always calm and very reasonable, good at soothing me when I need it, and never, ever likely to use an unpleasant swear word! Not even in the slightly milder form used by Father Jack and his compatriots. And as for that masterclass thing, I was barely keeping ahead of the class, usually coming back to SBAi to learn a bit more about using Apideas before having to pretend that I had some knowledge worth imparting. I think that I got away with it though (and learned by making a lot of mistakes) ....

Local breeding initiatives, cooperative breeding - absolutely. Bee breeding amongst commercial guys? Well, one at least does raise his own queens and is gearing up for more of it. Although he has a lot of Carnies, I'm not sure that this is the way all his breeding efforts are going to go. I don't see cooperation on a full local breeding programme working between the local bee farmers though. You can take collaboration between sometimes individualistic competitors a bit too far!

Is Tayside a lost cause for a near-native breeding effort? No, I don't think so. Murray himself uses a site with a clearing in a wood and reckons that many of the matings take place above the clearing. Jon is able to maintain semi-decent stocks around Belfast, so as long as you select the best fertilised queens to be your drone and queen raisers, it is possible. Plus we have an isolated site in mind, but haven't yet used it - the cost of travel is a consideration here as well as the need for more colonies than we currently have. But I think that all we can achieve (without bringing in 'pure' Amm from elsewhere which I don't really want to do) is to breed docile, productive, healthy near-native types from the more Amm-leaning (and therefore stable) local bees.

[Jon]

so as long as you select the best fertilised queens to be your drone and queen raisers

As long as you are sure of the mother queen you grafted from the drone bit is no problem as the daughters will produce the right drones irrespective of the drones they have mated with.
I have several colonies with quite a few yellow banded bees but I use them as drone producers as I am 100% sure of the origin of these queens.
I think the bigger problem is likely to be getting a pure (ish) race queen to graft from.
In your case Gav, I would be tempted to try and get one decent new queen every year which would be the one to graft from.
Any colonies headed by her daughters would be the drone producers for the following season and you would graft from an unrelated queen in the following season.
This is a simple system which works well in an area with multiple races but you do need to be able to source a new pure race queen every year - preferably a local one.

[The Drone Ranger]

There was a link on another thread to BiBBA who are doing wing/hair/tongue screening etc then going on to DNA test candidates to identify any AMM bees.
If there are some local to me the test results will identify them meanwhile I'll just "Keep Calm and Carry On"

Jon
Snelgrove in "Swarming its Causes....." suggests more or less the same solution as you have for establishing a population of single race bees in two years. Would two different breeder queen sources be better for genetic mix ?

If all the big beekeepers convert to AMM I will be delighted because in next to no time at all I will have them too.

Re the queen producers I was amazed how they slice and dice the queen cells in the video
I'm used to giving them kid glove treatment how can those queens be better ?

[Jon]

More queens is better but you can get by with one if you always select a new unrelated queen to graft from every year.
I know people who have used this system for years.

I was amazed how they slice and dice the queen cells in the video

I hadn't seen that before either but 1 day from emergence the queens are fully formed, just soft. If you hold them to the light like he did in the video you can see the queens moving about. Some people post queen cells but I have never tried it myself. I imagine it is like posting mated queens and you include a few workers in case the virgin emerges in the post.

[The Drone Ranger]

There was another video of someone doing the grafting.
The speed was incredible must be practice makes perfect
Before colour sexing of chicks Japanese chicken sexers could do one every 3 seconds

[Dark Bee]

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ................ But I think that all we can achieve (without bringing in 'pure' Amm from elsewhere which I don't really want to do) is to breed docile, productive, healthy near-native types from the more Amm-leaning (and therefore stable) local bees.

I know Jon has alredy replied, but I would like to add that using AMM queens from a project that has been in existence for some years will or should give you a headstart. The other thing to remember is that in areas of harsher climate there will be a continual natural selection in favour of AMM. For example here in South Shamrockshire, the area was inundated with Italian bees twenty years ago by a now dead entrepeneur, over the years the yellow bands have faded and would have disappeared altogether were it not for the odd subsequent importation by new commercial men - who instinctively know how "it should be done". The weather is on your side, never forget that; Think of Napoleons mob and the Germans on the road to Moscow Have alook at the characteristics the GBBA score when breeder queens are being selected, they have stood the test of time and it would be difficult to improve on them.

[wee willy]

There was another video of someone doing the grafting.
The speed was incredible must be practice makes perfect
Before colour sexing of chicks Japanese chicken sexers could do one every 3 seconds

Before sex linked chooks ,we loved to watch the sexers at work ! They rarely got it wrong , as kids we would buy half a dozen cocks for very little money (very little money was all we had) and try to rear them for Christmas , I must admit with limited success as a card board box in the hearth was as near a Hoover as we could manage !
VM


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