Co-op Imports New Zealand Bees

[The Drone Ranger]

The trouble for the co-op I suppose is sorting out a partner to work with.
On one side we have the lady with the cowpat hives who got Julia Bradbury stung in the eye (Countryfile)
On the other side large Commercial bee enterprises importing Carniolans
If you have worked in a large corporate company you know they always listen to the partner with a proven track record

I was nearly in sympathy with the argument for imports but at the end of the day if early high yielding crops like rape disappeared so would the excuse for importing early queens. Likewise if large scale queen breeding was taking place in UK perhaps the imports would reduce.

[drumgerry]

I was nearly in sympathy with the argument for imports but at the end of the day if early high yielding crops like rape disappeared so would the excuse for importing early queens. Likewise if large scale queen breeding was taking place in UK perhaps the imports would reduce.

And the interests of commercial beekeepers or commercial anything are always going to be that - their own interests. What gets them the profit margin they need to pay the wages of their staff and make their living. Not something you can really find fault with. But their interests don't necessarily coincide with the long term future of the honeybee in these islands. There's always going to be that "have to make a profit this year" element to what they do.

Now I'm a BIBBA member and I must say things don't move fast with them. I don't want to be overly critical of them but some practical solution to the plight of AMM/native bees needs to be found. And I'm not sure BIBBA have the oomph to deliver that. Project Discovery seems a good thing but how long have BIBBA been at this with no seeming practical progress? It seems to be down to the hobby beekeeper to deliver any practical results. And if that's the case why isn't there funding for us to scale it all up?

I could see myself getting II kit and training at some point and embarking on a serious breeding programme but I suspect that'll be down to me with no help forthcoming from funding bodies. It does frustrate the hell out of me to see large scale funding for projects and businesses at whose core lies the import of non-native strains of bees. Not sure where the logic for it is but I suspect a big part of the problem is that the funding bodies wouldn't know a Carniolan from a Landrover. And it's accordingly easy to bamboozle them. Feed the Co-op (I'm not referring to Murray here btw) a line about saving the bees whereas in reality nothing of the sort is happening and all that's being done is saving the business of a Greek or Slovenian queen breeder.

[Feckless Drone]

Following up DRs comments - here in Tayside we get the "benefits" of the commercial drones and swarms perhaps; whatever is bought in. Maybe late matings when the commercial drones are up in the heather might avoid them. But, would it be good use of funds to get a commercial operation on Q-rearing going locally rather than import? Maybe not depending on costings and time is money but I am sure many here would welcome such an activity. It would be interesting to get the commercial perspective on the benefits or not of setting up Q-rearing here. Or are these operations satisfied with how things are going normally. I would like to know if artificial insemination is really necessary to do this properly? Jon has discussed raising Qs at his association apiary and the numbers seemed not too far off what might be required or available at a couple of sites.

Given that the commercial activities have a strong influence on hobby keepers in this area then I want to learn from them, what works and what does'nt. Murray Mc gave us a really interesting talk last winter and I'm still a bit surprised about the limited interaction between hobby keepers and commercial. Could a Q-rearing group help promote the interaction?

[The Drone Ranger]

"wouldn't know a Carniolan from Landrover"
Fell about laughing at that one

It is possible a large beekeeping operation might develop a queen breeding program if it was profitable.
Could that work with a pure strain of AMM possibly (but probably not likely)
It would need to be financially attractive -- subsidy ??

[drumgerry]

DR from what I recall of what Murray said about it at the time he believed AMM wasn't profitable for his operation. And if reliant on open mated queens it wasn't reliable in weather terms.

So maybe it needs to be made profitable and more reliable for the likes of him. There seems to be subsidies for plenty of things agricultural so why not a UK-based AMM breeding programme?

I also recall that in 2012 he wasn't getting ridiculous amounts of heather honey from his NZ Carniolans. Maybe 30lbs or so? Shame he's not here to confirm or deny. But that's not an outrageous amount of honey and certainly my native-ish types got that last year as well despite the crappy summer. So maybe the gulf between native/AMM and his all singing all dancing Carniolans isn't so great after all. And if not why not go down the native route rather than bring queens from half a world away with its attendant risks?

[Jon]

Hi Feckless D

Jon has discussed raising Qs at his association apiary and the numbers seemed not too far off what might be required or available at a couple of sites.

I see several problem areas with regard to UK queen rearing interacting with commercial customers.

1. They want them early and in many years local stuff wont be ready until late June. Maybe overwintering queens in small units could get around that problem but again it is somewhat hit or miss in our climate.

2. They need queens supplied to a timetable and we have the problem with UK/Irish weather so that is a big variable both in terms of volume of successfully mated queens and the timing of availability. I find it is hard enough to keep a couple of local shops supplied with honey when they want it all year round let alone queens.

3. They want them cheap. I think some of those queens which come in from Greece and Slovenia work out at about £5 each if you buy in bulk. Why do you think every shark in the market is selling nucs made up from local bees plus a cheap imported queen. It is good business for them. I don't mean Murray here as I know he is more interested in quality queens. How could a UK supplier provide queens at £5. Even at £30 each it is a labour of love rather than a viable business model.

4. You need isolated mating stations with the right sort of drones present in volume. II is not suitable for mass volume sales and is more a technique for producing breeder queens in my opinion. Pete L can chip in here if he sees fit re. time and profitability of II.

I see the problem from a different angle as I think individuals and beekeeper associations should be geared up to rearing their own queens in a collective effort. Many of them focus almost exclusively on honey shows and have nothing on offer at all in terms of rearing queens. I always find it strange that so many beekeepers think that buying in an imported queen at maybe £40 is going to solve a problem. I see a lot of posters on BKF talk about 'bought' queens as if the act of paying for one makes it automatically better than something reared as part of an organised local breeding programme.

The commercial guys do business in terms of profitability. I doubt there is any sentiment about the impact of placing hundreds of Carnica colonies in areas where it might be sensitive in terms of hybridization with local stocks. If the rumours about heavy losses among commercial beekeepers this winter are true, we could well be swamped by hundred of imports as commercial beekeepers seek to refill the empty boxes in time for the first nectar flow.

The real cost of imports will only become known when we get tropilaelaps or small hive beetle or some virus which is already present in some bee stocks and has not even been recognized yet.
The thing is, those of us who do not support imports will have to pay the price the same as those beekeepers who do.

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi Drumgerry
Couldn't say for sure about the heather honey.
The colonies at rape are at full strength and getting geared up for swarming soon after
Perhaps the bees that go to heather are not the same ones though
Perhaps there is a market for UK raised queens going to heather.
heres how they do it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYs5Ot0ayBw
heres where they go https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lzp...B7F9F13BA63BC2

I guess while rape is king imports will be with us, but since rape growing is reliant on subsidies that can change.

[Dark Bee]

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .............



I see the problem from a different angle as I think individuals and beekeeper associations should be geared up to rearing their own queens in a collective effort. Many of them focus almost exclusively on honey shows and have nothing on offer at all in terms of rearing queens. I always find it strange that so many beekeepers think that buying in an imported queen at maybe £40 is going to solve a problem. I see a lot of posters on BKF talk about 'bought' queens as if the act of paying for one makes it automatically better than something reared as part of an organised local breeding programme......................................... .................................................. .................................................. .
.................................................. ......................................

The real cost of imports will only become known when we get tropilaelaps or small hive beetle or some virus which is already present in some bee stocks and has not even been recognized yet.
The thing is, those of us who do not support imports will have to pay the price the same as those beekeepers who do.

A splendid post Jon, The above excerpts are especially pertinent and contain basic truths with which every beekeeper and BKA should be at one.

[Feckless Drone]

Jon - yes, nail well and truly hit. I appreciate timing and reliability of getting new Qs, subsidies to keep costs down and livelihood verses pesky amateurs. I guess also here in sconny botland there is a long tradition of importing bees as well so what would a another 1000 Qs matter? Still I do like the idea of a collective doing Q-rearing in a concerted effort to improve stocks and supplies. There is a growing level of activity on Q-rearing in associations I think. Gavin has introduced a few here to grafting, apideas etc (but I'm not allowed to call it a masterclass) and there are other associations active in this. And actually it is such good fun to then see and appreciate a bit better what the bees are doing. I would like to know what the succession plans are for the commercial outfits from season and to season. And why do they need to import? is it the outcome of a poor Q mating season or seasons? Are their losses high? And if yes why is that? Or is it a mechanism to gain and use a subsidy? My prejudice is that a good commercial operation probably looks after bees much better then I can and if they have problems to sort out then the solutions might help me improve in the craft.

[Ely]

I'm not sure if this is an old story being revisited but there are some interesting threads in relation to the Co-op introducing hundreds of hives (imported queens from New Zealand) in England with some already introduced to north-east Scotland.

http://www.britishbee.org.uk/forum/s...ead.php?t=4984

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=9017

I think some of the SBAi regulars may have contributed already. For my part it seems out of kilter with the aims of the SBA/BIBBA to be introducing imported queens en-masse.

Should we not be pushing for local breeding initiatives which are linked to a national programme?

Alex

It must be really frustrating for UK breeders trying to breed suitable queens for their conditions. Must be like peeing against the wind

Sent from my XT615 using Tapatalk 2