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Thread: Video lecture about risk profile of neonicotinoid insecticides

  1. #31

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    Hi
    Part 2

    Scientists at the International Soil Reference and Information Centre in the Netherlands estimated in 1999 that mankind has degraded more than 7.5 million square miles of land. Our species, it would seem, is rapidly trashing an area the size of the US and Canada combined. A significant contributor to this degradation process is the rush to produce ever bigger mechanical harvesters, some weighing up to 15 tons. These massive machines mash wet soil into a well nigh impenetrable slab. Roots can’t penetrate the compacted ground, water drainage is poor; the water runs off causing erosion. The manufacturers of these giant machines are well aware of the damage done to the land due to compaction. Their solution to the compaction problem is to fit bigger tyres on the machines to spread the load. Farmers look at these machines as their salvation as they thunder through the cornfields – however in the long run they may be destroying their livelihoods and the very livelihoods of future generations. Unfortunately compaction is merely a small component in the mosaic of interrelated problems inflicting damage to soils all over the planet. “We are fast running out of dirt” - is a quote by a geologist at the University of Washington.
    The Loess Plateau in China is a classic example of bad soil management due to rushing headlong into full scale, but untried farming practices – a system, the Dazhai Way, adopted by the Chinese government has resulted in the exacerbation of soil erosion by the Yellow River, deemed to be the worst erosion problem in the world to date. The Loess Plateau is about the size of France, Belgium and the Netherlands combined.
    Opposed to this the Keita Project established 25 years ago by the Italian government of the day, has transformed 1,876 square miles of previously barren mountainous country in central Niger into an agricultural near miracle, which is now home to some 230,000 people. The project entailed tree planting to attenuate winds, lines of fist sized stones to slow the pace of eroding rainwater flow and a dam building program to conserve water from the seasonal rains.
    There was a famine in Holland during the years 1944 – 45 one Dutch family survived on a minute plot of plaggen soil; land enriched by generations of careful cultivation. This family are grateful for their ancestors care of the land, without this care the whole family might have died.
    Haiti is a classic example of soil mismanagement. Today less than 4% of Haiti’s forests remain and in many places the soil has eroded right down to bedrock. Haiti has to import some 400,000 tons of rice annually. The deputy director of the U.S. Agency for International Development in Haiti is quoted as stating “That’s as it should be, food self-sufficiency is not necessarily the goal. If it makes economical sense for them to sell mangoes and import rice then that’s as it should be”. The trouble is the farmers can’t sell enough mangoes to afford imported rice – shades of Marie Antoinette.

    All is however not lost, farming practices employed by primitive tribes in the Amazon basin, described in the 1966 book, “Amazon Soils”, by Dutchman Wim Sombroek could be our salvation. Despite the fact that Amazonian soils are notoriously fragile and impoverished Sombroek discovered large patches of terra preta do indio (black Indian earth) scattered along the Amazon River. This soil is as lush and dark as the life saving plaggen mentioned earlier. It forms a rich base for agriculture in a land where it was not supposed to exist. Terra preta is found only where human habitation occurred, which means it was a man made soil, dating from before the arrival of Europeans. The soil is rich in phosphorus, calcium, zinc and manganese which are scarce in tropical soils – its most striking ingredient is charcoal - vast quantities of it; the source of terra preta’s colour. It is the result of burning plants and refuse at low temperatures. Researchers at the University of Bayreuth report that simply adding crumbled charcoal and condensed smoke imparts an exponential increase in fertility to bad tropical soils. Tests by a US – Brazilian team in 2006 found that terra preta had a far greater number and variety of microorganisms than typical tropical soils – it was literally more alive!
    It is now believed that a black soil revolution based on terra preta might help combat global warming. Terra preta contains 10 – 20 times more carbon than typical tropical soils and the carbon can be buried much deeper down. Rough calculations indicate that the amount of carbon we can put into the soil is quite staggering. Researchers have postulated that man’s use of fossil fuels worldwide could be wholly offset by storing carbon in terra preta nova a modern version of terra preta do indio. These scientists are convinced that the world is going to hear a lot more about terra preta. Coupled to a steady return to crop rotation, reclaiming land from mono culture and resisting ‘knee jerk’ fertiliser/pesticide pollution regimes acre by acre, tree planting and systematic, planned soil enrichment programmes based on the high carbon mineral rich terra preta, food production might just be increased to meet the enormous demands predicted for the 2030s. Beekeepers, bees and other beneficial organisms would also benefit dramatically from a properly planned, sustainable world agricultural economy.
    Let’s hope we as a species have the savvy to do the necessary spade work!

  2. #32
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric McArthur View Post
    Jon’s astonishing statement; attributed to a government initiative:
    “A recent UK Government discussion document looked at ways of increasing food production without bringing more land into general agricultural production and reducing habitat even further”.
    Always happy to astonish you Eric.
    I attributed it to a Government initiative because...it was the product of a Government initiative.

    http://www.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/foo...gy-summary.pdf

    Edit
    And here is the Foresight Report published on Jan 24 2011.

    Page 15 of the report:
    There are strong environmental grounds for limiting any significant expansion of agricultural land in the
    future (although restoration of derelict, degraded or degrading land will be important). In particular,
    further conversion of rainforest to agricultural land should be avoided as it will increase greenhouse
    gas emissions very significantly and accelerate the loss of biodiversity.
    Last edited by Jon; 01-03-2011 at 10:27 AM.

  3. #33
    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stromnessbees View Post

    Janine Kievits wrote an interesting article in Pesticides News:
    Hi Doris

    Yes, the paper does indicate that some effects are irreversible. That is a different thing from saying that imidacloprid irreversibly binds to the receptors though. Doesn't it just mean that the mechanism had been damaged beyond repair? This might all seem like semantics, but we are arguing about what Dr Tennekes said, and he clearly stated that imidacloprid binds irreversibly to the receptors.

    The Janine Kievits article was interesting and nicely written. She seemed to dismiss the alternatives, saying that they seemed unlikely, then all that was left was the pesticide hypothesis and she seemed comfortable with that. In 2007 I might have agreed with her, but not now. 'It also seems unlikely that the declining hives are affected by any known viruses'. Maybe, but one previously unknown (actually less well known) one has now been described and seems like a prime candidate. 'CCD does not follow the pattern of an infectious disease.' Hmmmnn, plenty of people have said that it does.

    She is from Wallonia in Belgium. Instead of speculating, why didn't she turn to real data from Wallonia instead?

    http://www.affaire-gaucho-regent.com...pportfinal.pdf

    The report is all about determining the reasons for high losses in hives in Wallonia. It is in French, so I hope that you can follow it.

    all the best

    Gavin

  4. #34
    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric McArthur View Post
    Hi All
    I am with Gavin on this one: “Hey! You mean that there is good debate to be had on *this* forum surely”!
    His cynicism is well placed. Everyone in this thread is cherry picking, as usual – either trying to discredit opposing opinions by resorting to sarcasm, which is a sure indication somebody’s comfort zone has been penetrated
    Hi Eric

    I wasn't being cynical with that remark - it was meant sincerely.

    I agree with quite a lot - but not all of course - of your long post. Sustainability in agriculture is the new mantra in agricultural research and it really is taken seriously. But this is getting away from the point of this discussion, which was Dr Tennekes' claims and worries over what is now called 'diffuse pollution'.

    Gavin

  5. #35

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    As the post was started in relation to the risk associated with neonicotinoids we appear to have wandered off track. Here’s my attempt at a quick baseline summary of my thoughts to date (apologies for any errors or tortured science along the way):

    Neonicotinoids are reported to be very effective for crop protection against piercing-sucking pests; and they are highly effective for flea control on cats and dogs.

    They are readily absorbed by plants and act quickly, on piercing-sucking insect pests (aphids, leafhoppers, and whiteflies) of major crops. The neonicotinoids are poor as contact insecticides and for control of lepidopterous larvae. They are used primarily as plant systemics; when applied to seeds, soil, or foliage they move to the growing tip and afford long-term protection from piercing-sucking insects, apparently for up to 40 days in rice.

    Neonicotinoids and pyrethroids have higher selectivity factors for insects versus mammals than the organophosphates, methylcarbamates, and organochlorines. They generally have low toxicity to mammals (acute and chronic), birds, and fish. The low affinity of neonicotinoids for vertebrate relative to insect nicotinic receptors is apparently a major factor in their favourable toxicological profile.

    Owing to their relatively high water solubility and slow metabolism in mammals, some (IMI and thiacloprid) to almost all (clothianidin, dinotefuran, and nitenpyram) of an oral neonicotinoid dose is excreted unchanged in urine.

    But yes, if you feed enough of the substance to rats, goats and ducks they will develop debilitating diseases. Nicotine and other nicotinoids are candidate therapeutic agents as analgesics and for treatment of neurodegenerative diseases which indicates potential used for neonicotinoids.

    NEONICOTINOID INSECTICIDE TOXICOLOGY: Mechanisms of Selective Action Motohiro Tomizawa and John E. Casida, Environmental Chemistry and Toxicology Laboratory, Department of Environmental Science, Policy and Management, University of California, Berkeley (2005).

    Studies to date have not identified lethal affects on honeybees (trace dietary imidacloprid at field-realistic levels in nectar) but have noted reduced performance of between 6 and 20%.’ This includes effects similar to intoxication and lack of foraging performance.

    A meta-analysis of experiments testing the effects of a neonicotinoid insecticide (imidacloprid) on honey bees. James E. Cresswell, Ecotoxicology Nov 2010

    Neonicotinoids have been found in hives across the world and in France more than one hive in two has residues of imidacloprid in the pollen, 30% in honey and 26% in bees; the level of exposure is sub-lethal with no obvious effect on mortality. There is however thought to be a synergistic link between Nosema and imidclororid.

    Interactions between Nosema microspores and a neonicotinoid weaken honeybees (Apis mellifera) Cédric Alaux, et al Environmental Microbiology (2009)

    However, an important source of contamination in hives is from miticides used by apiculturists for the treatment of Varroa mite.

    High Levels of Miticides and Agrochemicals in North American Apiaries: Implications for Honey Bee Health Christopher A. Mullin et al Open Access Article 2010.

    Bee Honey as an Environmental Bioindicator of Pesticides’ Occurrence in Six Agricultural Areas of Greece. George Balayiannis & Panos Balayiannis Arch Environ Contam Toxicol (2008) 55:462–470.


    Interspersed among the studies and reports is a great deal of emotion and internet posts which indicate neonicotinoids are an extreme danger to a wide range of species and the environment without clearly articulating the scientific basis for their rationale.

    Most importantly, from a beekeeping perspective, no one has defined what they mean as harmful even though the majority use Oxalic Acid and miticides to treat honeybees. It is known that Oxalic Acid can have a harmful physiological effect on honeybees and similarly miticides (Apistan, ApiLife Var etc) can also reduce drone sperm production.

    For me this is especially important as it appears the honeybee genome contains significantly fewer ‘annotated’ genes compared to other insect genomes. One interpretation of a lack of so called detoxification genes in the honeybee is likely to translate to less pesticide detoxification capability, which could explain the honeybees’ unusual sensitivity to pesticides. This is likely to affect the honeybee’s ability to respond to multiple stressors, including those from beekeepers.

    A deficit of detoxification enzymes: pesticide sensitivity and environmental response in the honeybee C. Claudianos et al 2006 Open Source Journal compilation © 2006 The Royal Entomological Society.

    Now that we’re entering a discussion on agricultural methods in general I’ll bow out.

  6. #36
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    Useful summary Alex.

  7. #37

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    Hi Alex

    Alex wrote:
    But have noted reduced performance of between 6 and 20%.’ This includes effects similar to intoxication and lack of foraging performance.
    .................................
    This is a good situation? If this scenario were to occur in the human population there would be an uproar! Why accept this punishing regime on bees and other nectar feeding arthropods?
    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
    Neonicotinoids have been found in hives across the world and in France more than one hive in two has residues of imidacloprid in the pollen, 30% in honey and 26% in bees; the level of exposure is sub-lethal with no obvious effect on mortality. There is however thought to be a synergistic link between Nosema and imidclororid. .................................................. ......

    (Hmmmmm! Pettis and van Engeldorp did not think they found a synergistic link between Nosema and imidacloprid. They proved the link!
    Eric!
    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

    It is known that Oxalic Acid can have a harmful physiological effect on honeybees
    ................................................
    Oxalic acid occurs naturally in honey!

    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;
    One interpretation of a lack of so called detoxification genes in the honeybee is likely to translate to less pesticide detoxification capability, which could explain the honeybees’ unusual sensitivity to pesticides. This is likely to affect the honeybee’s ability to respond to multiple stressors, including those from beekeepers.
    .................................................. ..........
    Read this again Alex viz “which could explain the honeybees’ unusual sensitivity to pesticides”.

    Alex my man you are going round in circles!

    Whatever the “vested interest prophets” tell you – the evidence that something is severely wrong with current pesticide based agriculture is plain to see!
    Where have all the birds and soil dwelling organisms which constitute the food supply of the ‘lower animals’ gone? The absence of the huge variety of bees, moths and other flying insects which in days of yore used to result in enormous “kills” on road vehicle windscreens is a sure indication that there is ‘Trouble at Mill’. Carson was pilloried by the same type of people who are promoting this current pesticide over kill. The chemical multis continue to develop increasingly effective poisons which will ultimately work – to put it mildly; “counter productively” on life on this fragile autonomous spaceship Earth!
    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;

    Hi All

    Gavin wrote: (from another source!)

    I've been taking lessons from Eric on not how to do that effectively! (Sorry Eric, if you are reading)
    .....................................

    I would be obliged if you would desist from this infantile slandering of my name. You really are quite pathetic!
    You might like to comment objectively on Tom McGravie’s comments on page 66 of the March, 2011 issue of the Scottish beekeeper magazine on Varroa incursion – at a time when you probably could not even spell the name!
    From the stuff you are penning relative to your dispute with the SBA Executive’s DEMOCRATIC DECISION on Dr Connolly’s project it would appear to the objective observer that you are in crisis.

    Eric

  8. #38
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric McArthur View Post
    Hi Alex

    Alex wrote:
    But have noted reduced performance of between 6 and 20%.’ This includes effects similar to intoxication and lack of foraging performance.
    .................................
    This is a good situation? If this scenario were to occur in the human population there would be an uproar! Why accept this punishing regime on bees and other nectar feeding arthropods?
    We had Chemical Ali and we also have Chemical Eric.
    If I am not mistaken you have tipped all sorts of chemicals and pesticides into your hives over the years in the name of varroa control.
    Why is it ok for you to do this but wrong when the chemicals are used in other forms of agriculture?

    One of the main conclusions of the Engelsdorp study you mentioned above was that the highest levels of chemicals found in bee colonies were the chemicals put there by the beekeeper as part of varroa control. So who is the bad guy here?

    Whatever the “vested interest prophets” tell you ...
    You lost me here. Who are you referring to?


    I still don't understand your position on pesticides. Do you want them all banned or just neonicotinoids?
    If you want to keep some but not others I would be curious to know why you prefer one class over another.

    PS
    What is the source or reference for the two posts you made on soil degredation the other day?
    Last edited by Jon; 02-03-2011 at 03:49 PM.

  9. #39

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    Hi All
    Jon wrote:
    We had Chemical Ali and we also have Chemical Eric.
    If I am not mistaken you have tipped all sorts of chemicals and pesticides into your hives over the years in the name of varroa control.
    .................................................. ............................................
    There you go again Jon, name calling and jumping to unfounded conclusions! If you had been a subscriber to the “Scottish Beekeeper” magazine between 1994 and 2005, you would never have posed that question. As I pointed out to Alex; oxalic acid and formic acid occur naturally in honey – I have used both of these substances for many years in moderation and even today, yesterday actually, there is NO MITE FALL in any of the “Clyde Area Bee Breeders Group” colonies.
    As a matter of fact due to my perseverance as editor of the “Scottish Beekeeper”, against virtually nationwide criticism, many beekeepers still have bees today, having moved over to the organics which I advised; just as pyrethroid resistant mites appeared. Most sensible, progressive beekeepers now use oxalic acid at dosages recommended either by weight or volume.
    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
    Jon wrote:
    One of the main conclusions of the Engelsdorp study you mentioned above was that the highest levels of chemicals found in bee colonies were the chemicals put there by the beekeeper as part of varroa control. So who is the bad guy here?
    .................................................. .....
    Not true! Their ground breaking finding was a lethal synergistic relationship between imidacloprid and Nosema sp..
    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
    Jon wrote:
    Whatever the “vested interest prophets” tell you ...
    You lost me here. Who are you referring to?
    .................................................
    If the shoe fits............................!

    .................................................. ...........
    Jon wrote:
    I still don't understand your position on pesticides. Do you want them all banned or just neonicotinoids?
    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
    Neonicotinoids should be banned for the reasons below: The use of all pesticides needs to be more closely regulated, with the long term view of fostering sustainable agriculture by correct land management, crop rotation and ploughing, instead of the present - “no till, total kill” policy.
    1 ‘Neonicotinoids’ are extremely poisonous; Imidacloprid is 5000 times more toxic than DDT and Clothianidin is even more lethal. Just 3 to 5 parts per billion of Clothianidin in solution will kill any bee.
    2 Crooked science
    Bayer promised to carry out an additional ‘lifetime, or chronic exposure, study’ in 2003 – but only submitted this after four growing seasons in 2007. Bayer went to Canada and placed just four beehives in a two and a half acre plot of canola, treated with Clothianidin, surrounded by a vast prairie of untreated wild flowers. Now – the foraging radius of a bee colony is – conservatively – about 1.5 miles, this makes for about 3,000 acres. So, in comparison to 3,000 acres of pesticide-free forage, 2.5 acres of pesticide-laced canola, represents about 0.0008 of the total area – less than a fifteenth of one percent.
    .................................................. .............................
    Jon wrote:

    What is the source or reference for the two posts you made on soil degredation the other day?
    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
    Land Degradation references:
    Please would have been nice!
    1) Terra Preta di Indio
    2) Parliamentary Office of Science and Technology
    3) National Geographic Magazine, September 2008.
    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

  10. #40
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    One of the main conclusions of the Engelsdorp study you mentioned above was that the highest levels of chemicals found in bee colonies were the chemicals put there by the beekeeper as part of varroa control. So who is the bad guy here?
    .................................................. .....
    Not true! Their ground breaking finding was a lethal synergistic relationship between imidacloprid and Nosema sp..
    Hi Eric.
    Which Engelsdorp and Pettis study are you referring to?

    This one - High Levels of Miticides and Agrochemicals in North American Apiaries: Implications for Honey Bee Health - was published in March last year.

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0009754

    Apparently Pettis did some work on pesticides and nosema interaction a couple of years ago but hasn't got it published yet. There has been speculation that this is due to the difficulty in isolating the effects of the nosema / pecticide interaction from other general stresses produced in caged bee studies. Either way, he hasn't found a journal happy enough to stand over it yet. There was some talk that a German journal was going to publish it.

    The published work on neonicotinoid nosema interactions is the paper by Alaux.

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...123.x/abstract

    As I pointed out to Alex; oxalic acid and formic acid occur naturally in honey
    Come now, at the concentrations used by beekeepers, I don't think so.

    You could use that argument to justify neonicotinoids as well as they are based on the naturally occuring insecticide nicotine.
    I like vinegar on my chips and I fumigate old comb with 80% acetic acid but am careful not to mix them up as the product has quite a dose dependent effect!

    Jon wrote:
    Whatever the “vested interest prophets” tell you ...
    You lost me here. Who are you referring to?
    .................................................
    If the shoe fits............................!
    Still lost Eric. Too cryptic for me.

    As a matter of fact due to my perseverance as editor of the “Scottish Beekeeper”, against virtually nationwide criticism, many beekeepers still have bees today,
    Must be great to have saved the world so many times over.

    Re the references, 1) Terra Preta di Indio means Indian black earth in Portugese. It is not a journal!! I noticed that the two posts you made were cribbed almost verbatim from a National Geographic article.

    Now – the foraging radius of a bee colony is – conservatively – about 1.5 miles, this makes for about 3,000 acres.
    Do the math. 1.5 * 1.5 *3.14 * 640 = 4521 acres
    You are cutting and pasting from dodgy sources.

    Imidacloprid is 5000 times more toxic than DDT
    Based on what measure?

    5 parts per billion of Clothianidin in solution will kill any bee
    The issue is whether this happens under field conditions.
    Noone has managed to demonstrate this yet.
    if it doesn't happen in the field it is not a problem.

    Your opinion is clearly that neonicotinoids should be banned, but that is of limited interest to impartial observers who are interested in evidence and facts re. the potential problems.

    2 Crooked science
    Bayer promised to carry out an additional ‘lifetime, or chronic exposure, study’ in 2003 – but only submitted this after four growing seasons in 2007. Bayer went to Canada and placed just four beehives in a two and a half acre plot of canola, treated with Clothianidin, surrounded by a vast prairie of untreated wild flowers. Now – the foraging radius of a bee colony is – conservatively – about 1.5 miles, this makes for about 3,000 acres. So, in comparison to 3,000 acres of pesticide-free forage, 2.5 acres of pesticide-laced canola, represents about 0.0008 of the total area – less than a fifteenth of one percent.
    Beekeepers in the uk who are surrounded by Oil seed rape (canola) report that their bees build up really well on it. I noted with Interest that the leading anti neonicotinoid campaigner borderbeeman eventually admitted that he hadn't lost a single colony in two years even though he is completely surounded by oil seed rape. Well well well. How can you explain that if Imidacloprid is '5000 times more toxic than DDT?'
    Last edited by Jon; 03-03-2011 at 11:04 AM.

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