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Thread: Why AMM?

  1. #1
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    Default Why AMM?

    I've been mulling this over for a while now, and tried to figure out a "nice" way to ask the question, but I can't so I"m just going to go for it.

    Why the interest in the "British Black Bee"/"Apis Mellifera Mellifera"?

    The people that I know here that had them aren't that sorry to see the back of them.

    My bees live through winter and give me honey, in my brief time beekeeping I havent had to consider much else. Why should I, as an individual beekeeper care what their provenance is?
    Last edited by Neils; 21-02-2011 at 01:57 AM. Reason: Finally able to correct the spelling :)

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    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    Because you care, not just about your bees but about the bees that were always here. The heritage of your forefathers, the bees that lived in the trees in the woods before man took over.

    More than that, they offer beekeeping something extra. Compact colonies attuned to our weather. Long-lived queens and workers. Better mating in poor weather. Better winter survival, on average, given that they can fly in cooler weather, they don't mind protein rich winter food, and they are very frugal. Effective, sustainable bees rather than high maintenance, high-input variable-output bees.

    Why do the beekeepers around you not have pleasant memories of them? They are not remembering the pure type but hybrids with imports which look similar. Also, they are comparing a lightly bred bee of old with highly bred bees of commerce. Amm could do that too if they were given a chance.

    Will that do for now?!

    Gavin

    PS Oh, and two 'll's, one 'f'.

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    Hi Nellie,

    A good question but an easy one to answer. On the Rosneath Peninsula we decided to start a bee breeding group back in 2006 to improve our local bees. The first objective was to determine what kind of bees we had locally. We surveyed all the local colonies and with the help of BIBBA found we had a high proportion of colonies that were either Amm or near Amm, therefore we started to improve the Amm. The reason for this is in my opinion it is easier to improve a pure strain of bee than a hybrid strain of bee. We surveyed the area again a few years later and found that the number of Amm colonies had reduced. The reason was the new beekeepers on the Peninsula obtaining colonies that were local but were hybrid colonies. The main aim is now to set up an isolated site for breeding and to conserve the Amm stocks we still have. We are more fortunate than beekeepers is England where we have a low density of beekeepers and a better geography for this aim, we also don,t have any commercial beekeepers near us which may also affect us in conserving Amm

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    In large tracts of North Wales we have put our heads together and decided that the best way to get decent bees that breed true is to all keep similar bees so that open matings will result in bees as good as the parents. In a chaotic system, where everyone keeps different bees, there is almost no point in selecting the best to breed from because open matings will always produce variable results - often very aggressive results. In our area, which is pretty marginal for bees, the race that seems to do best are the purest of the AMMs that we have and so we have decided to concentrate on them. Pretty soon I am sure that the areas cooperating in this initiative will soon be full of bees that are as good as the best of our stocks. These best bees are gentle, healthy and productive. However, we have to keep vigilant as any exotic strains that are brought into the districts can undermine all our good efforts so we hold regular meetings, carry out wing morphometry and cooperate with BIBBA to gain access to their DNA testing project. The movement is growing, our numbers are swelling and the bees are improving.

    In more clement areas you could probably do something similar with other races but I suspect it will always be easier to concentrate on AMMs as natural selective forces of nature and the environment will work in your favour.

    In addition to the self interests of beekeepers, AMMs are an important part of the native flora and fauna and many of us feel duty-bound to try to preserve them for future generations.

    Steve

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    In his book on the black bee in Europe, Christophe Gauthier states that a comparative study shows that AMM harvests a greater quantity of pollen from a wider variety and a greater number of plants. The wider variety helps create a healthier, longer living bee.
    It also means that more plants of more varieties are pollinated leading to a greater biodiversity in the foraging area.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosie View Post
    In addition to the self interests of beekeepers, AMMs are an important part of the native flora and fauna and many of us feel duty-bound to try to preserve them for future generations.
    Steve

  6. #6

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    In line with Gavin and Rosie's comments, Ruttner notes in 'The Dark European Honey Bee', published by BIBBA, on the general behavioural characteristics of AMM as "extreme economic caution as expression of a defensive strategy directed against a harsh environment".

    Putting altruism to one side, in my part of the world it makes perfect sense to support the indigenous bee (notwithstanding discussions on the current genetic make-up of bees) proven over millennia to cope best with a northerly climate.

  7. #7

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    Hi All

    Nellie wrote
    Why AMM?
    I've been mulling this over for a while now, and tried to figure out a "nice" way to ask the question, but I can't so I"m just going to go for it.

    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
    I read the replies of Gavin, Jimbo and Rosie with interest and would re-phrase Nellie’s question in the hope that further deep discussion might take place to convince the AMM doubters that there is indeed a case for flooding areas which might be unsuitable for such a bee.
    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
    Rosie/Steve wrote:
    In more clement areas you could probably do something similar with other races but I suspect it will always be easier to concentrate on AMMs as natural selective forces of nature and the environment will work in your favour.
    A rather interesting statement! “In more clement areas you could probably do something similar with other races”.
    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
    Gavin wrote:
    Because you care, not just about your bees but about the bees that were always here. The heritage of your forefathers, the bees that lived in the trees in the woods before man took over.
    .................................................. ...........................
    The environment has changed quite dramatically since even 1900. Where are these woods now. White clover has virtually disappeared in Scotland except where Grizzly and Margie ‘bee keep’. Hedgerows have been removed in favour of fences. According to both Ruttner and Adam AMM is susceptible to acarine and is a stinger. Berhard’s “Maud” bees were inveterate swarmers according to personal communication. AMM historically is not a particularly fecund bee, reportedly with the advancement of modern agriculture AMM honey production became inferior to other races especially in the spring.
    However depending on bias this bee can be all things to all men. But I feel sure commercial beekeepers will not be fans of AMM.
    As” Devil’s Advocate” -
    Why not concentrate on pure race A.m. carnica (now with the added bonus of selecting for Varroa tolerance. Doris already knows about this facility!) in these more “clement” areas in the UK? Much as the Germans did prior to WW1, which ultimately displaced the dominant black bee in favour of the Carniolan: confining the dark bee to the heather region of the Lüneburger Heath, where it is legendary for its slow build up, which coincides with the heather bloom, as opposed to the rapid spring development of the Carniolan, which would be ideal for OSR in the UK, for which AMM is most definitely not the bee. The heather (late!) areas of Scotland would be ideal for the fostering of AMM, which as Rosie quite rightly implies - viz “I suspect it will always be easier to concentrate on AMMs as natural selective forces of nature and the environment will work in your favour”.
    I am not in favour of the blanketing of Scotland by AMM as a fetish, romantic notion, but by being selective with habitat the best of both worlds could be enjoyed by the AMM enthusiasts and the rest of us.

    Eric
    .................................................

  8. #8
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric McArthur View Post
    As” Devil’s Advocate” -
    Why not concentrate on pure race A.m. carnica (now with the added bonus of selecting for Varroa tolerance. Doris already knows about this facility!) in these more “clement” areas in the UK? Much as the Germans did prior to WW1, which ultimately displaced the dominant black bee in favour of the Carniolan: .
    If you read this paper by Robin Moritz you will note that AMM was never displaced by Carnica in Germany. The modern German bee is actually a hybrid between AMM and Carnica.

    more than 40 years have not been sufficient o replace the
    autochthonous mellifera race with carnica.
    This paper also illustrates some of the pitfalls associated with distinguishing bee races on morphometry alone.

    I keep AMM (at least I hope they are AMM - dna confirmation pending) because they are the native bee of Ireland and the UK.
    I think it is important to preserve native species as they are the best adapted to local ecosystems where they have evolved alongside local flora and fauna for tens of thousands of years.

    At a personal level I find my bees are very gentle to handle irrespective of the experience of Ruttner.
    I rarely have to use smoke other than a puff or two on removal of the crown board and I handle them with just surgical gloves and a veil. (with the rest of my clothes on before someone makes a quip.) I have done an inspection of 20 or more colonies over an afternoon and not picked up a single sting even though the bees could sting my hands at will. On a bad day you will pick up a few stings around the fingers but that happens with any race of bee.
    I checked colonies today and they all have loads of stores left. Frugal overwintering is one of the desirable characteristics of AMM.
    I have been reading on various beekeeping forums where people have left a couple of supers on a colony and still had them run out of stores. I don't want to be bothered with bees like that.
    Last edited by Jon; 21-02-2011 at 02:01 AM.

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    I think that it is important to realise that Amm was once the bee right across the UK, not just in heather regions. Here in the east our bees would always have had plenty of spring forage. Those lowland eastern Amm stocks would be attuned to the forage here including sycamore and dandelions around the same time as OSR now. Even without the conservation considerations, Amm still has a lot going for it.

  10. #10
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    I used to live in an OSR area and my bees, which I believe to be near native and exhibit all the usual AMM traits, used to do particularly well during the rape season. They were brilliant at finding pollen and if I wanted an early start with the rape I used to stimulate a few colonies with thin syrup. There was no need for pollen patties such as some recommend. The ones I did not stimulate still got a worthwhile crop of rape and did not suffer from the problem of early swarming which early bees such as Carniolans or stimulated AMMs are prone to.

    One advantage of AMMs is that they can be managed easily. They respond to the environment, even if you are manipulating it, and will succeed regardless of what's thrown at them. It is not surprising that they suit the conditions so well as they have had thousands, if not millions of years to adjust to it. It seems daft to me to throw away such a wonderful resource and it's not true, by the way, that all bee farmers prefer exotic bees. I know three that use local bees and at least 2 of them are working hard at breeding from their purest AMMs and their results are improving year by year.

    Rosie

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