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  1. #3221

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    I use the method Gavin describes, i.e. nucleus method of swarm control. It suits me as I use a single BB.
    I think beginners might find it a little daunting as the published material (Dave Cushman and I have also seen it on other sites) say that when doing the final check for QC's shake the combs (apart from the one with the chosen cell) to ensure there are no others. If you leave more than one they will swarm.
    Any way, it works for me. I normally take the queen in the nuc box to another site so it does not lose flying bees.
    This year I am trying out a modified Snelgrove using Ken Bastefields method as swarm prevention. Half way through so too early to say.

  2. #3222
    Senior Member Kate Atchley's Avatar
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    ?? How do I reply with quotes from Gavin, fatshark and Black Comb!?

    Fatshark, my reading of the Warings' book (now called Get Started in Beekeeping is that they describe a classic Pagden ... moving the queen into a box of fresh frames on one frame of brood (free of Q cells), the original brood box moved to the side. Flying bees can be drained from this after a week or so by moving it to the other side, before splitting into nucs or reducing the number of Q cells, as preferred.

    I don't think I've seen Gavin's method described elsewhere and it seems the ideal plan for a weekly cycle of visits and settling a colony to be non-swarming for the rest of the season, fingers crossed.

    My puzzle is this: moving the Q to a nuc with 3 frames in, say, May restrains her before she has reached peak egg-laying in June. So some potential brood is lost as she will lay only slowly in the small nuc.

    The original colony will requeen but, almost certainly, mating and laying will be slower than for a virgin flying from a small nuc colony. So again, a potential for egg laying may be lost in that timing difference comparing "Gavin's method" with Pagden.

    So what is the best method for the hobby beekeeper who's not constrained to weekly visits, but wishes to:
    • control swarming
    • create increase
    • harvest a honey crop?

    Perhaps the answer is the same if the question is phrased: which method promotes the laying of the most eggs? Ah, but do I hear you say "this may depend where the bees end up"?

    I'm aware that a large colony achieves disproportionately more nectar gathering than, say, two colonies each half its size. So the size of the main colony is clearly important for the harvest. In Pagden, much of the original brood is moved away from the main colony. Yet the queen, if strong, will build up and lay the fresh frames quickly in the large colony.

    If, say, two colonies are created from the Pagden split-off Q cells these should build up in time to gather a surplus crop from the heather in these northern areas, especially if good weather prevails.

    I'm using Gavin's method with one of the colonies at Strontian. But I sense Pagden is probably the overall winner, if beekeeping patterns allow. I'm interested to hear more from others about this.

  3. #3223

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    Yes the nucleus method sounds great but in my experience there are 2 downsides.
    1. You must fully inspect 9/10 days after removing the queen to knock down all QC's except your chosen one. Ideally shake the frames as if you miss one they will swarm. This is a nearly full queeless colony so they will be feisty.
    2. There is a brood break. So, I take the queen in the nuc to another site and then bring back and unite before the main flow.
    Yes Pagden has its advantages, some move the parent colony twice after the first manipulation to get plenty of flying bees back into the AS.

  4. #3224
    Senior Member fatshark's Avatar
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    Perhaps the Waring's' book has changed. My copy, 2006 ISBN 978-0-340-92563-8, has a section in Chapter 5 called The nucleus method. It was one of the few books that I've seen it described in ... but they also include the classic Pagden.

    If it has changed it's a retrograde step as I think the method has advantages, notwithstanding the need to inspect the original colony. A well-timed brood break has significant advantages in terms of Varroa control, though I admit I'm not certain how to be sure of the timing ... which must be influenced by colony strength, forage availability and mite levels.

    By coincidence I'm doing both methods today.

    PS The circle split mentioned above is on Wednesday ... I'm getting ahead of myself, the cells aren't quite ready yet.

  5. #3225

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    I've not seen the Waring book but this is the one I use
    http://www.shropshirebees.co.uk/swarmnuc.doc

  6. #3226
    Senior Member Kate Atchley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatshark View Post
    Perhaps the Waring's' book has changed. My copy, 2006 ISBN 978-0-340-92563-8, has a section in Chapter 5 called The nucleus method. It was one of the few books that I've seen it described in ... but they also include the classic Pagden.

    If it has changed it's a retrograde step as I think the method has advantages, notwithstanding the need to inspect the original colony. A well-timed brood break has significant advantages in terms of Varroa control, though I admit I'm not certain how to be sure of the timing ... which must be influenced by colony strength, forage availability and mite levels...
    No, the book hasn't changed fatshark ... my mistake, so sorry. I hadn't clocked Gavin's method was called the Nucleus Method and didn't notice it before "The Artificial Swarm".

    Just returned from trip to check queen cells above two Horsley boards but the slides had been moved so bees could pass to and fro from below, through the Qx. No cells started! Will need to begin again ... maybe another method but on another day ... the sun's still blazing here as it has been all day. Glorious!

  7. #3227
    Senior Member fatshark's Avatar
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    Glorious here as well ... just removed my first supers and discovered that my attempt with a Snelgrove board has been a bit of a failure. Don't tell DR.

    I didn't get on too well with a Horsley board the couple of times I've used it. In contrast, a very ordinary and unexciting vertical split with a 7 day turn of the colony appears (again - it's almost idiot proof which is why I like it) to all be going fine and dandy.

  8. #3228

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Comb View Post
    Yes Pagden has its advantages, some move the parent colony twice after the first manipulation to get plenty of flying bees back into the AS.
    Hi Black comb Pagden is expensive though
    making a Snelgrove board about £5-00
    Second broodbox for Smith £21 from Solway bees
    Total about £26

    Pagden you need another roof £21 floor £17.30 crown board £7.00 plus the broodbox £21
    Thats £66.30 so more than twice the cost
    Plus you have to lug the thing from one side to the other

  9. #3229

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    Quote Originally Posted by fatshark View Post
    Glorious here as well ... just removed my first supers and discovered that my attempt with a Snelgrove board has been a bit of a failure. Don't tell DR.

    I didn't get on too well with a Horsley board the couple of times I've used it. In contrast, a very ordinary and unexciting vertical split with a 7 day turn of the colony appears (again - it's almost idiot proof which is why I like it) to all be going fine and dandy.
    Bad luck Fatshark did they just swarm anyway ?
    Or did you not get a new queen mated

  10. #3230
    Senior Member fatshark's Avatar
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    All looked good from the outside when I checked at 7 days ... lots of bees going in and out of the front entrance and door 1. Popped the lid to check for QC's in the top and found the smallest queen I've ever seen being harried by the bees. D'oh! I must have missed a tiny sealed QC when assembling the boxes. Of course, there wasn't a single other QC present. I took a frame of eggs and young larvae from the bottom box and put it into the top after ejecting the midget queen* ... leaving the doors unaltered. I'll check again next w/e.

    No swarms yet, loads of nucs to make up this week and lots of bait hive activity ... it's going to be a good week

    * unfortunately, in doing this (she was being balled) I managed to drop her rather than squidge her so she's probably snuck into another box to wreak havoc. Not my finest beekeeping achievement.

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