Apis mellifera mellifera(AMM) honey bees

[Eric McArthur]

Jon wrote;
Who exactly is breeding bees bred for looks and wing venation? I don't know anyone who does this. The best use of morphometry is to detect a hybridised colony and REJECT it as a candidate for breeding.
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Eric wrote:
Exactly my point – the hybrid is rejected out of hand, because it LOOKS wrong. No mention of its qualities.
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Jon wrote:
I know you see yourself as a visionary, but it seems to me you are a little late to the party here with regard to morphometry and other indicators.
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Jon there is no way back for you from Post number 29.

How far back do you wish to go? I was corresponding with Beowulf Cooper about AMM and the importation of exotic honey bee in the 1970s? I actually participated in the original Stoakley Morphology Seminar, in Peebles at which Ian Craig was also present, when Dr Eric Milner was in his hey day! I still have the wing samples used then.
I told Dr Milner at that event that it had been a fun day but that in my opinion breeding AMM in Scotland was “fetish”. The environment and forage has changed quite dramatically since the 1920s– (I assume you know of Dr Milner’s contribution to the science of Morphologie?)
Tell me what you associate Ernst Haekel with and we can discuss the subject on equal terms. As I said there is no substitute for experience and education.

Eric

[Jon]

How far back do you wish to go? I was corresponding with Beowulf Cooper about AMM and the importation of exotic honey bee in the 1970s?

Eric. You could try and adopt a less agressive tone.
It is clear you go back a long way and nothing gives you more pleasure than name dropping - but since when did time spent on earth automatically translate into knowledge?
Some younger guys are very clever and a lot of older guys have baggage and are set in their ways.
You need to be asking questions about how bee genetics works in practice, as it is clear from this thread that there are very basic concepts which you have never understood. ie this sort of misconception:

If all annual queen needs are reared from a single queen mother by grafting – does this not imply that the resulting drones, albeit a generation out of step, would all be identical. Especially if all the mother queens are obtained from the same source year on year. Thus virgins, all sisters, being mated by these drones could all carry identical alleles. – the mind boggles! I look forward to your correction of my postulation.

Jon there is no way back for you from Post number 29.

Post number 29 is your post not mine Eric. Did you find something inaccurate in it!

[gavin]

Gavin, Jimbo, Chris et al - Jon needs help here, he is out of his depth!

[snip]

Yes, we are now getting to the nub of “experience” v ”male bovine excrement

Cut it out Eric, please.

Share your vast experience of beekeeping with us in a helpful way and we will all welcome and appreciate that.

Share your views on the big beekeeping issues of the day - in the right place - and we'll debate them with you without rancour if at all possible.

Brag about the people you knew and the battles with them you think you won, and we'll quickly tire.

Insult people and you will be controlled.

So guys and gals, could we please keep this area for constructive discussion of native bees?

[Eric McArthur]

Hi Gavin

Gavin wrote:
Share your vast experience of beekeeping with us in a helpful way and we will all welcome and appreciate that.
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I wish I could believe that. Since I joined this Forum, which I enjoy, I have been subjected to constant reminders of how much you, Jon, Jimbo and Chris know and how much I am in need of remedial help!
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Gavin wrote:
Share your views on the big beekeeping issues of the day - in the right place - and we'll debate them with you without rancour if at all possible.
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The big issue on the table at present is AMM and its propagation in Scotland.

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Gavin wrote:
Brag about the people you knew and the battles with them you think you won, and we'll quickly tire.
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Bragging is empty words! I am not bragging. I am merely stating my CV to a hostile audience, which seemingly when faced with the unpalatable truth that perhaps they have underestimated a “contemporary”, seeks to diminish the individual’s ability to effectively dispute ‘accepted wisdom’.


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Jon wrote:
Eric. You could try and adopt a less aggressive tone.
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Well I never! Have a look at the last post on the “10 isolated colonies” thread and then talk to me about aggression. That is if you can find the thread! Where did you put it Gavin?
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Jon wrote:
It is clear you go back a long way and nothing gives you more pleasure than name dropping - but since when did time spent on earth automatically translate into knowledge.
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This is a no win situation you are trying to foist on me. I get hammered for pasting stuff. So I give you steps for a hint and that is name dropping? Give us a break and do your homework!
What have you been doing with YOUR time on Earth? I personally have been studying the theory and practice of apiculture for some 40 years and I have learned a few things on the way and by no means” automatically”! You accuse me of being a “Johnny come lately to morphology” and then take offence when I tell you that my experience predates yours by probably zig years.?


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Jon wrote:
You need to be asking questions about how bee genetics works in practice, as it is clear from this thread that there are very basic concepts which you have never understood.
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Grafting is usually done from a comb in which all the larvae to be grafted are “in band” relative to age in the same time scale. The spermatozoa which fertilises the eggs on this comb will result primarily from the “shoal” of sperm from a single drone from the layered sperm in the spermatheca. Thus all these larvae have the same mum and dad and therefore the daughters when they mate with the drones produced by the previous generation (their mother!) will be mating with the related drones.
Do you want to discuss the sub-family relationships: super sisters, full sisters and half sisters? These relationships are the “criticals” in breeding and if these relationships had been looked at objectively the nonsense about bowls of fruit and coloured buts of cloth in the ‘disappeared’ thread would never have arisen.
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Jon wrote:
Post number 29 is your post not mine Eric. Did you find something inaccurate in it!
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I did not say the post was yours – just reads the content which quotes you!

Eric

[Rosie]

...from a single drone from the layered sperm in the spermatheca.

Hasn't that theory been debunked years ago?

Rosie

[Jon]

Yes, decades ago but the myth still persists with a lot of beekeepers.
I remember someone on another forum claiming that his bees changed colour from black to yellow and then back to black and that this was because the drone sperm was stored in the spermatheca in discrete packages.
Maybe needs to keep more of an eye on supersedure and swarming!!

Bragging is empty words! I am not bragging. I am merely stating my CV to a hostile audience, which seemingly when faced with the unpalatable truth that perhaps they have underestimated a “contemporary”, seeks to diminish the individual’s ability to effectively dispute ‘accepted wisdom’.

Your audience is not hostile - it is critical in the scientific sense. It is also educated.
You often post opinion and claim it as fact. Don't be surprised when it gets challenged or debunked.

An Internet Forum is a funny business Eric. It is a debating chamber rather than a pulpit, with an immediate right to reply. Unlike, a magazine article for example.
Reputations mean nothing when inaccuracy and misunderstandings are there for all to see.

[Eric McArthur]

Hi Rosie /Jon

Rosie wrote:
Hasn't that theory been debunked years ago?
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Jon wrote:
Yes, decades ago but the myth still persists with a lot of beekeepers.
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It is easy for somebody who has never really observed the structure of the individual members of a honey bee colony closely or who is not widely read to discount the intelligent observations of more experienced beekeepers. No offence meant here! I am simply stating scientific fact.
I’d paste the relevant prose - but considering the antipathy to such procedures I will merely give you a critical reference, which confirms what I wrote to be true and contradicts the polemic: viz – “The Hive and the Honey Bee”, 1993 edition, page 244, last paragraph before “SELECTIVE BREEDING”. A taster quote! – “For instance individuals of a single SUBFAMILY may have a high genetic pre-disposition to defend the hive and as a consequence, make the colony very defensive while the 16 or so other SUB FAMILIES may be very non defensive.
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Jon wrote:
I remember someone on another forum claiming that his bees changed colour from black to yellow and then back to black and that this was because the drone sperm was stored in the spermatheca in discrete packages.
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This beekeeper was correct. Working with some 3000+ colonies of acclimatised hybrids over the years I have noticed this phenomenon many times. Beware of false prophets!
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Jon wrote:
Reputations mean nothing when inaccuracy and misunderstandings are there for all to see.
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Point made and hopefully taken!
Best regards
Eric

[Rosie]

“The Hive and the Honey Bee”, 1993 edition, page 244, last paragraph before “SELECTIVE BREEDING”. A taster quote! – “For instance individuals of a single SUBFAMILY may have a high genetic pre-disposition to defend the hive and as a consequence, make the colony very defensive while the 16 or so other SUB FAMILIES may be very non defensive.

Eric, have you got anything more up-to-date that describes scientific research into the sizes of the sperm packages in the spermatheca?

Rosie

[Jon]

Jon wrote:
I remember someone on another forum claiming that his bees changed colour from black to yellow and then back to black and that this was because the drone sperm was stored in the spermatheca in discrete packages.
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This beekeeper was correct. Working with some 3000+ colonies of acclimatised hybrids over the years I have noticed this phenomenon many times.

Sounds like you need to keep a closer eye on supersedure and swarming leading to a replacement queen but don't let me stand in the way of your beliefs.

It is easy for somebody who has never really observed the structure of the individual members of a honey bee colony closely or who is not widely read to discount the intelligent observations of more experienced beekeepers.

On what basis do you consider yourself to be (a) more observant or (b) more widely read than any other poster here?

Some more reading material re. haplodiploid genetics would do you no harm.

[AlexJ]

Eric,
I haven’t read much on the topic and certainly can’t speak from a great deal of personal observation on the matter, but I have read a couple of papers in light of previous discussions on this forum. They indicated quite firmly that sperm usage is random and that clumps are not a factor in the spermatheca. For info they are:

Sperm usage in honeybees, Micheal Halberl and Diethart Tautz, Behavioural Ecology and Sociobiolgy Vol 42 No 4 (1988)

Proteomic analyses of male contributions to honey bee sperm storage and mating, Collins et al. Insect Molecular Biology (2006)
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One study gives a 6% or less chance if any of sperm clumping which you may, or may not, find statistically meaningful.

I can email them to anyone who needs a non-chemical means of falling asleep.

Alex