Is what they've done so far (click for a larger version)
Is what they've done so far (click for a larger version)
Freshly drawn comb like that is something that has always fascinated me. If my eyes aren't getting too old, I seem to notice that Nellie's bees have drawn it all with the hexagon apexes (apices ?) at the top, whereas Emse's bees have done a mix. I've forgotten what Ian Rumsey said about this,though I seem to remember it was interesting. If my computer holds out another day, I'll try and dig it out.
Hey Rosie. My bees have chewed through the line on 6 frames already
Sorry if that's caused you any nuisance.Originally Posted by chris
Hey Rosie. My bees have chewed through the line on 6 frames already
Mine often chew line too - that's why I use 30lb line instead of the 20 lb as recommended by Dave Cushman. I find though that at 30lb the majority of the lines survive until I need to recycle the frames and then I just melt out the old comb which leaves the lines in place for the next starter strip. The vast majority of the ones that are chewed last long enough for the combs to have had some brood and hence strengthened naturally with cocoons. I can't remember any instances of both lines being chewed through early enough to cause me any handling problems but with National frames very little extra support is needed in any case.
All the best
Rosie
Slight tweak required methinks, they're drawing out the stores at the top of the frames wider than the frame spacing before moving onto the next frame so I think I'm going to shuffle things around so that all the foundation is together and then start to put the foundationless frames between the two while not splitting the brood nest.
It's not the end of the world but I might take a knife with me and trim down the stores to fit properly on the next inspection.
I made up ten frames with 30lb fishing line at the weekend and will add feedback when they start to draw it out.
Hi Chris, If you do remember I look forward to hearing about it. I vaguely remember someone once saying that bees moving from foundation to building their comb from scratch tend not to build the cells the right size in the beginning and it takes time for them to adjust. Is that right? I could always take a ruler with me to see what mine are up to.Freshly drawn comb like that is something that has always fascinated me. If my eyes aren't getting too old, I seem to notice that Nellie's bees have drawn it all with the hexagon apexes (apices ?) at the top, whereas Emse's bees have done a mix. I've forgotten what Ian Rumsey said about this,
Hi EmsE. My computer has just started working again. Here is the wording that I found. Unfortuneately I couldn't upload the diagrams.Sorry for the strange layout- it comes from trying to copy an Acrobat document.
Horizontal comb is said to occur when the apex of the hexagon cell is at the top. Vertical comb has the apex of the hexagon at the side and is in fact horizontal comb rotated through 90 degrees.
The shape of the hexagon enables it to withstand externally applied tensions and press-ures in contrasting degree, dependent upon the orientation of the apex.
From the diagram below it may be seen that tension applied vertically and pressure applied horizontally would flatten and elongate horizontal comb.
However a reversal of these tensions and pressures would permit the hexagon to more readily retain its shape.
This is due to the horizontal zigzag component of the hexagon matrix being restricted regarding stretching and flattening as the vertical ties prevent the parallel zigzag components moving apart in an opposite direction.
A state of equilibrium is obtained and the hexagon shape is maintained.
It is clear therefore that to avoid cell distortion in natural comb the hexagon cells must be orientated in such a way as to withstand the internal tension exerted within the brood nest area.
Cell Orientation
To understand the finer points concerning natural comb construction, let us consult the master of this art, the designer of the structure, the manufacturer of the actual material, namely the bee, and also compare their knowledge and ability with our own mechanical theory. Two different types of mind may obtain the same solution.
The broodnest area is encircled with stores which supply the circumference with a rigid framework. The shape of the broodnest, with our theory,should decree the distortional stresses and in consequence ,the cell orientation.
Let us take a rope, suspended say between two poles 30 feet apart. It would form a catenary, and the tighter the rope the more shallow the catenary would become. The ro-pe would be under tension in the horizontal plain and there is no need for any immediate vertical support to aid suspe-nsion. We will now envisage the rope as an arrangement of hexagon cells, and to withst-and such tension, the hexagon would require to be orientated with the apex at the top. It would follow that where the broodnest was much wider than it is deep a similar orientat-ion would be required to avoid distortion The bees understand this and build horizontal comb accordingly.
Ropes may be suspended down wells, here the tension in the rope would be vertical and hexagon cells representing the rope would require the apex to be at the side to now wit-hstand the vertical tension. Upon this example bees building natural comb in tall narrow cavities would experience vertical tension and be expected to produce vertical comb. They comply.
May I suggest that bees appreciated the mechanics of hexagon structures before we could count to ten. Wax foundation, being produced as horizontal comb, prevents vertical comb being present within the hive, whereas natural comb in feral colonies very often produces broodnests comprising of vertical co-mb. Feral colonies appear to survive in areas of varroa infestation; colonies containing vertical comb. Per-haps consideration should now be given as to whether vertical comb may be detrimental to varroa reprod-uction.
Comb Betwixt Between
Bees being bees, and nature being nature, there also occurs natural comb which is a variation between the horizontal and vertical arrangement.
As previously explained, vertical comb is just horizontal comb turned through 90 degrees,but in actual factdue to the hexagon shape,the rotation need only be 30 degrees to achieve the same result.If one took thisrotation at one degree at a time there would be a further 29 variations of comb orientation between horiz-ontal and vertical comb.
This third type of comb clearly exists, it occurs quite regularly, and appears to the eye as horizontal comb with a downward slope.
If our theory regarding distortional stresses within the broodnest is valid, then application of this theory should provide a reason for the existence of this comb which is betwixt between.
Consider a broodnest that is not centrally placed within the comb and is altogether over to one side, to the extent that one side of the broodnest directly abuts the frame or cavity wall.There are no cells cont-aining sealed stores on this side, the rigid framework surrounding the broodnest has been broken. The st-resses now inside this area are neither totally vertical or horizontal but somewhere in between.
To compensate for this, bees reorientated their cell construction to the alignment of the revised direction of tension.
So, why should bees build a broodnest not centrally placed within the comb but over to one side? May I suggest temperature variation. When comb is placed so that a temperature gradient occurs across its surface, the broodnest may well be positioned towards the warmest edge. This theory is easily proved by observing the presence of comb with such a slope and noting whether the slope is down toward the warmer position within the hive, and that the broodnest is in fact offset also in this direction.
Even with these structural variations being available, the queen cannot afford to lay her eggs in total disregard to the loading of the broodnest area. An example of the queen's balanced method of brood expansion may be seen in HerrodHempsall's book 'Beekeeping New and Old' pages 429/430 which includes 17 photographs clearly showing this careful management. As one might expect with these structural considerations in mind, the larger and heavier drone cells are placed along the underside of the broodnest area thus again minimizing possible cell distortion. Has there been a lot of thought put into the manufacture of feral colony comb which takes all these factors into consideration?
Is this thought undertaken prior to actual commencement of comb construction? Does the comb construct-ion reflect the unique environmental conditions for each feral colony?and become a permanent record of joint information that has been collected and acted upon by a group of individuals?
The evidence is there, unbelievable, or unacceptable, as it may be.
The final chapter of T.W.Cowen’s book “ The Honey Bee ” is entitled “ Wax and Comb Construction” which is concluded by a quotation by Lord Brougham. The second sentence of this quotation reads – Not a step can we take in any direction without perceiving the most extraordinary traces of design. This I feel includes the construction of natural comb.
Ian Rumsey
Thanks for that Chris, really interesting, will have another read later and let it sink in a bit more.
Hi Chris, Thats great & not something to digest in a quick lunch break either. Glad to know that it's not due to my bees being poor at geometry but because they have a healthy respect / appreciation of physics
I am reading this with great interest and think I would like to try the fishing line method for some of my frames in both supers and brood chambers. If this is not a silly question, is there a point when it becomes too late to introduce frames like this to get comb drawn. I ask this because last year I had an older super of undrawn frames where the wax got broken accidentally. I thought I would be smart and cut the wax out leaving a wee strip along the top. They did nothing with it at all. From memory it was a bit later on in the summer and I didn't paint new wax along the top. Would that probably be why?
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