Sugar Syrup for all Seasons!
What is the optimum sugar syrup strength for each season; Winter feeding; spring feeding; feeding in poor summers.?
What are the major factors governing strength of fed sugar solutions?
What are the advantages/disadvantages of feeding propriety brands of syrup – Ambrosia etc?
Is cane sugar syrup more acceptable to bees than Ambrosia etc?
Last year I gave my colony a spring feed of weak syrup to stimulate them, however 1 thing I noticed was that there was some chilled brood, I'm assuming because there wasn't enough workers to look after the brood (please correct me if I'm assuming wrongly). Having had all winter to debate on the rights & wrongs of last year and confuse my self reading Yates, I'm wondering if I should leave the bees to build up in their own time so that 1) I would avoid the chill brood and 2) I could assess what my colonies natural tenancies are which is probably something I should know??
So on the basis that the colonies have sufficient stores come spring, what are the views on providing a weak syrup to stimulate the colony.
Eric- I hope you don't mind me adding another question to yours for debate- I just thought they were linked
I think the availability of pollen is more critical to brood build up in spring.
For winter feeding, rather than feeding for winter I'd give fondant if necessary. I actually try not to feed in preparation for winter, but that's a slightly different question so I'd normally use 2:1 sugar to water syrup.Originally Posted by Eric McArthur
Spring and poor summers I'd be inclined to use 1:1 syrup. Again, touch wood I've not needed to feed in summer to prevent starvation, though last year it was more down to luck than forward planning, I hadn't taken the supers off when the rain came and lost a super on each of my two honey producing hives as they munched their way through it. All things considered I'm happy with that arrangement though.
1:1 more closely resembles nectar and supposedly less likely to be stored. I also think that quantity plays a part in this, I'm far more inclined to feed little and often with 1:1 syrup than give them a bucket load of the stuff, especially if I intend to super those hives and take it as honey later.What are the major factors governing strength of fed sugar solutions?
2:1 I believe is "better" for them as winter stores as they don't have to work as hard to be able to store it though I'm informed you can go to 3:1 sugar to water, I've never tried it.
Cost, no idea what's in it, might be something in it that you don't want on your colonies. I especially don't want "treatments" for things like nosema in anything that I'm giving them as the norm, i.e. prophylactic treatments. While I don't have much truck with the "natural" beekeeping movement, I try to let my bees be bees and balance my interference to try as much as possible to just let them get on with it.What are the advantages/disadvantages of feeding propriety brands of syrup – Ambrosia etc?
Is cane sugar syrup more acceptable to bees than Ambrosia etc?
I don't think the bees care one way or another whether you give them cane sugar, beet sugar or any one of the plethora of supplements that are out there. My personal style of beekeeping is to view feeding as a measure of last resort.
I honestly don't know. But as it's the internet I'm entitled to give an opinion
My fear would be that by giving them syrup when they still had a lot of stores, they'd continue to munch on honey and simply store the syrup instead. Any hive I view as being a honey producer I try not to feed at all. I'm reminded of the stories about wartime beekeepers being given sugar dyed green and the amount of green honey that showed up subsequently as evidence of just how much stuff gets tucked away and moved around the hive at a later date.
That's one of the things that I've often wondered about although I wouldn't want to expose my bees to more chemicals than necessary just to explore this further but it does intrigue me. I would like to say I don't feed my bees as I leave them the honey they need to get through, however I need them to produce enough for their own needs in the first place let alone mine. (Mine haven't read the books on how much stores are required to get them through the winter as I'm sure many other colonies haven't either)I honestly don't know. But as it's the internet I'm entitled to give an opinion
My fear would be that by giving them syrup when they still had a lot of stores, they'd continue to munch on honey and simply store the syrup instead. Any hive I view as being a honey producer I try not to feed at all. I'm reminded of the stories about wartime beekeepers being given sugar dyed green and the amount of green honey that showed up subsequently as evidence of just how much stuff gets tucked away and moved around the hive at a later date.
Hi EmsE
how much winter stores depends on the size of the colony when you feed them for the winter.
I try to give at least 12,5kg per colony of Apiinvert if they take that well they get another 5,5kg.
They either sit through the winter on 9-10 or 18-20 frames. I have my fisrt colonies overwintering on six frames they are fine so far -I will decide on weither I do it again based on how they build up in March.
It is said to be better for the bees during long cold spells as it does not fill up their bowels so quickly...
Last edited by Calum; 02-02-2011 at 11:32 AM.
Hi All
Sugar for all seasons
EmsE wrote:
Last year I gave my colony a spring feed of weak syrup to stimulate them, however 1 thing I noticed was that there was some chilled brood, I'm assuming because there wasn't enough workers to look after the brood (please correct me if I'm assuming wrongly ). Having had all winter to debate on the rights & wrongs of last year and confuse my self reading Yates, I'm wondering if I should leave the bees to build up in their own time so that 1) I would avoid the chill brood and 2) I could assess what my colonies natural tenancies are which is probably something I should know??
So on the basis that the colonies have sufficient stores come spring, what are the views on providing a weak syrup to stimulate the colony.
Eric- I hope you don't mind me adding another question to yours for debate- I just thought they were linked
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It would have been a better ploy – if possible to have ‘scarified’ the surface of a spare well filled brood comb – taken perhaps from side of the hive and placed flat right above the wee cluster. This would have given them quick access to both honey and pollen (which Jon so rightly states is critically essential for brood rearing. Another advantage of the flat comb is that it will act as a heat sink and trap any ‘life saving’ wild heat escaping from small cluster. A couple of degrees C could just make that difference between live and death! A refinement to the flat comb ’ploy’ mentioned would be creating a ‘bee space’ between the underside of the comb and the top bars of the brood comb thus giving the bees access to the whole face of the donated comb rather than just the face exposed to the spaces between the frame tops. Another ‘icing on the cake’ ploy would be cutting a hole round or rectangular in the donated comb and placing a honey jar with pierced lid, filled with a 1 ; 2 (sugar: water) syrup on it, thus at a stroke you have given your bees easy access to honey pollen and a palatable drink to assist brood rearing.
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Nellie wrote;
For winter feeding, rather than feeding for winter I'd give fondant if necessary. I actually try not to feed in preparation for winter, but that's a slightly different question so I'd normally use 2:1 sugar to water syrup.
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You are right of course – feed sufficient prior to the winter. Starting around early September and feeding until the bees tell you they’ve had enough - by ‘pushing the plate’ away! If the bees have been given a super of drawn comb, or better still a deep box, prior to commencing feeding – ideally this super should hopefully by mid October be chock full of sugar honey! This level of stores should see the bees well through. Fondant, candy or solidly crystalised sugar bags are always hand as a fall back in late winter if necessary.
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Nellie wrote
Spring and poor summers I'd be inclined to use 1:1 syrup. Again, touch wood I've not needed to feed in summer to prevent starvation, though last year it was more down to luck than forward planning, I hadn't taken the supers off when the rain came and lost a super on each of my two honey producing hives as they munched their way through it. All things considered I'm happy with that arrangement though.
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In a poor spring and summer situation I would be more inclined to feed a steady 1 : 2 syrup, as above, just to keep the bees in good heart and breeding on any incoming pollen. A 1:1 syrup will encourage the bees to store possibly reducing breeding space for that long awaited but certain ‘weather window’ however short when it occurs during the less than optimum weather under discussion. Keep your colonies strong and in good heart and when the weather breaks watch them go to it! Your ’lost supers’ were far from lost to you – they were a gain for the bees!
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What are the major factors governing strength of fed sugar solutions?
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Nellie wrote
1:1 more closely resembles nectar and supposedly less likely to be stored. I also think that quantity plays a part in this, I'm far more inclined to feed little and often with 1:1 syrup than give them a bucket load of the stuff, especially if I intend to super those hives and take it as honey later.
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Can’t fault your regime and philosophy apart from my preference in a poor active season for 1: 2 syrup!
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Nellie wrote
2:1 I believe is "better" for them as winter stores as they don't have to work as hard to be able to store it though I'm informed you can go to 3:1 sugar to water, I've never tried it.
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I have always used cold water when making up syrup. Takes longer since the sugar in suspension will settle out. Breaking this ‘sediment’ up requires a bit of time and effort but with a little patience a near 2:1 syrup can be obtained.
Before I ‘went over’ to sugar bag feeding, in the late 70s; after the return from the heater. I used 6 gallon buckets to mix around 250 – 300 gallons of syrup on a ‘conveyor belt’ system striiring and breaking the sediment over a period of days.
To achieve a 3:1 syrup near boiling water is required and the syrup when cold will be liable to crystalising. Expensive stuff to produce in bulk – what with the price of power these days!
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What are the advantages/disadvantages of feeding propriety brands of syrup – Ambrosia etc?
Is cane sugar syrup more acceptable to bees than Ambrosia etc?
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Nellie wrote
Cost, no idea what's in it, might be something in it that you don't want on your colonies
I honestly don't know. But as it's the internet I'm entitled to give an opinion
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Ambrosia bee food syrup is a specially prepared liquid food for bees consisting of natural sugars glucose, sucrose and fructose. With the sugar being very concentrated, this ensures the bee food does not 'go off', while the high fructose content stops the bee food becoming crystallised - remaining in its natural syrup state to allow your bees to feed.
Cost is the main disadvantage at around £1.20/ litre. Especially when even today it is possible to purchase a 15 kilo pack of sugar from Costco for less than £8 - £0.54/kilo.
Convenience is the main advantage for the busy bee man!
Surprisingly, honey bees actually prefer a sucrose syrup to all other combinations and have actually shown a marked preference for sucrose syrup when given a simultaneous choice of different syrup combinations in feeding for the winter – neat fructose; neat dextrose; dextrose/fructose; dextrose/sucrose; fructose/sucrose; dextros/fructose/sucrose.
A number of beekeepers have reported that the sucrose preference includes rejecting Ambrosia etc in its favour.
Many years ago, when Eva Crane was the Director of BRA, before the name change to IBRA, Bee World, the ‘house’ magazine of BRA in late 70s carried a report of an exhaustive study carried out on the syrups in question. The statements above apart from the comments on Ambrosia result from this work. The IBRA librarian could check the archives of Bee World confirm this if requested.
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Hi Calum, My post didn't read how I meant it to- (it was too late at night for me). I was hoping the bees this year would bring in enough of their own stores through the year for winter but they didn't so I had to feed which is what i wanted to avoid.
The year before I gave them far too much and was left with 4 brood frames full of sugar- Good for insulation though
Eric- I like the idea of the comb. Unfortunately all I have in mine this year (& last year) is sugar syrup. I did put pollen substitute patties on last year and they started rearing brood I but wonder if I should leave them to it. There was plenty of pollen in when I closed them up for the winter. Do you feel it is of benefit feeding in spring as a matter of course and just adjust the strength if they're short on stores?
Last edited by EmsE; 02-02-2011 at 02:23 PM. Reason: missed a word
makes sense on reflection. What's your approach to feeding at this concentration? Slap a litre or two on and see how they get on or fill a huge feeder and leave them to it?
I try to view feeding as a measure of last resort hence my general preference to feed small quantities of syrup, see how they get on and add a little more if necessary. Obviously you need to adjust quantites when dealing with a full colony compared to a nuc in times of dearth, but in my first year I went to town with syrup giving them gallons of the stuff whether they needed it or not.
Very interesting. I tend to view supplements in feed, mine as well as bees, with suspicion, but interesting that they'll take sucrose over anything else given a choice.Surprisingly, honey bees actually prefer a sucrose syrup to all other combinations and have actually shown a marked preference for sucrose syrup when given a simultaneous choice of different syrup combinations in feeding for the winter – neat fructose; neat dextrose; dextrose/fructose; dextrose/sucrose; fructose/sucrose; dextros/fructose/sucrose.
A number of beekeepers have reported that the sucrose preference includes rejecting Ambrosia etc in its favour.
I inherited a swarm and left all the supers on my hive this year to ensure they had the best start in their new location. I switched the super and brood box to leave the super on the bottom. I thought that would see them through the winter; into spring.
With the extreme cold weather and having read some of the posts over the past few weeks I relented - and had a look in the hive, without taking off the crown board, saw that bees were visible through the feeding holes. I made up 'fondant' from the SBA recipe 500ml water to 2kg sugar ending up with two bricks of solid sugar. I used clear plastic containers leaving a bee space at the top of the container.
I put the container across the two feed holes in the crown board without much hope of the 'brick' being well recieved. Four days later the container was full of bees and half empty.
While impressed with their capacity to process solid food, does it indicate they will now need fed regularly into the season? Also will they consistency of the food have an adverse affect on them at this time of the year?
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