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Thread: BBKA Pesticde Decision

  1. #21
    Senior Member chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric McArthur View Post
    One needs to be very careful about believing such dodgy info sources as Panella. He is after all only the President of the Italian National Beekeepers Association
    Eric, was he elected president? That conjures up all sorts of *delicate* manoevering.

  2. #22

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    Hi Chris
    This will take about 5 minutes to read but the effects will be felt in agriculture for many years.

    Eric

    Pesticide Usage in the UK 2000 -2009; Source FERA (Farming and Environment Research Agency) website
    The attached word documents gives data for area of crops treated in each year, plus weight of insecticide applied. Summary totals are:

    IMIDACLOPRID
    Area of crops treated with Imidacloprid in the UK 1994-2009 – 6,383,388 hectares – or 15, 327,331 ACRES
    Total weight of Imidacloprid applied in years 1994-2009: 396,172 kg – or 396 metric tonnes

    CLOTHIANIDIN
    Bayer's patent on Imidacloprid expired in 2003 and in order to maintain market share they introduced a far more toxic nicotinoid - Clothianidin.
    Area treated: 2006-2009: 871,058 HECTARES – 2,090,540 ACRES
    Weight of Clothianidin used: 75,387 kg or 75 METRIC TONNES

    THIACLOPRID
    Area of crops treated with Thiacloprid 2002-2009: 173,017 HECTARES, 415, 241 ACRES
    AMOUNT OF THIACLOPRID APPLIED 2002-2009: 19,966 kg – or 19.97 METRIC TONNES

    THIAMETHOXAM
    AREA USAGE 2005-2009: 46,364 HECTARES or 111,274 ACRES
    AMOUNT USED 2005-2009: 1,891 kg – 0r 1.89 METRIC TONNES

    ACETAMIPIRID
    AREA TREATED 2007-2009: 12,376 HECTARES , or 29,703 ACRES
    WEIGHT APPLIED 2007-2009: 670 kg

    TOTAL AREA OF UK CROPS TREATED WITH NEONICOTINOIDS 2000-2009 = 7,486,203 hectares or 17,966,887 acres

    WEIGHT OF NEONICOTNOID PESTICIDES USED ON CROPS IN UK: 492,195 KG or 492 metric tonnes

    NOTE: Imidacloprid is also the main pesticide used on grass lawns, golf courses, school playing fields, road verges, hospital grounds and in municipal parks. It is applied as a treatment against cranefly larvae (leather-jackets) which are the staple chick-rearing-food of starlings and other birds. The application rates for grasslands are far higher than for human food-crops, but we do not yet know how many acres are treated or what weight is applied. It may well exceed agricultural use.

    3. IMIDACLOPRID USE IN TOWNS (see attached document)

    Imidacloprid is used extensively on lawns and grasslands in towns. The attached one-page document 'Imidacloprid in Towns' is a set of notes I put together.
    Imidacloprid is applied to lawns and golf courses to kill leather jackets - and once applied it remains active for up to two years. However, it is highly soluble in water and it migrates through the soil during rain storms, and is then absorbed by any wild flowers or garden flowers growing nearby. These in turn become toxic to bees - and even if thrown on the compost heap - or if grass cuttings are taken from golf courses - the compost itself is laced with imidacloprid and the poison chain continues.

    4. IMIDACLOPRID USE IN THE NURSERY-TRADE, GARDENS AND HOUSE PLANTS (see attached document Intercept 5GR)

    Imidacloprid is applied to flower bulbs and seeds throughout the nursery trade - especially in Holland which dominates the plant-market. The plants are thus perfused with the toxin when the seeds sprout. They are then put into tray-compost which is laced with granular Imidacloprid. They are then potted on into larger trays (for bedding plants) or into individual pots for sale in garden centres. When the plants arrive at the point of sale in the UK, they are given a 'foliar top-up' using 'Provado Bug Killer' which saturates the leaves in Imidacloprid again. So the customer who buys geraniums or petunias for her hanging baskets is buying plants which are lethal to any bees or butterflies which visit the flowers in her garden. Similarly, gardeners who buy tulips or daffodils from the bulb-fields of Holland or East Anglia, are buying bulbs which are soaked in Imidacloprid and are lethal to bees and other pollinators. In effect we have created gardens which are lethal to bees and all insects.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric McArthur View Post
    It must be a culture thing – Glaswegians are an odd bunch, especially Glaswegian beekeepers.Eric
    Are we really, Eric? signed, Glaswegian beekeeper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric McArthur View Post
    Hi Nellie
    Let me say firstly that I am extremely sorry if my remarks regarding concern for your well being were considered to be offensive. It must be a culture thing – Glaswegians are an odd bunch, especially Glaswegian beekeepers.
    Think it's just you to be honest, thank goodness.

    Guess it shouldn't surprise me that as one of the copy and paste zealots that you're incapable of actually discussing the stuff you slap down on forums all over the web because it's far easier just to paste an article or another fact sheet you've copied from somewhere and open the Big Book of Internet Ad Hominem responses in preparation for anyone not prepared to accept whatever you've pasted this time at face value to respond. Well done.

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    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    Eric, when did you last wonder if you might have got it wrong on neonicotinoids? Where does your certainty come from? Why is it that the studies that looked at real effects in the field didn't find any? Why is it that bees seem to do as well on OSR now that most OSR is grown from imidacloprid seed?
    Last edited by gavin; 20-01-2011 at 01:00 AM.

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    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    There are a number of classes of compound used to protect crops from insect and other pest damage.

    Organochlorides: includes DDT which built up in food chains and caused huge problems for top predators. The elimination of these has allowed a slow recovery of birds of prey populations in the UK for example.

    Organophosphates: includes some really unpleasant compounds, usually toxic to wildlife. Generally being replaced by newer, safer compounds.

    Carbamates: similar mechanisms to OPs, somewhat better in terms of damage to wildlife.

    Pyrethroids: analogues of natural variants. Much safer than those above. Many of us have put strips in our hives impregnated with them to kill mites, as honeybees are resistant to some of them. Many variants though, and some are better for bees than others.

    Neonicotinoids: a relatively new class of insecticide, based on nicotine but with much lower mammalian toxicity. Some, like thiacloprid, are reported to be well tolerated by bees. Imidacloprid has been widely studied for toxicity and the great majority of studies report that the levels found in arable crops in Europe are safe. A small number don't and it is these that the anti-pesticide zealots keep quoting. Other neonicotinoids vary, for example clothianidin has killed large numbers of colonies when allowed to drift as a dust from mistakes in the preparation of dressed seed. The safely to man and the lack of clear evidence for environmental damage when applied cautiously means that these pesticides are dominating now. Some applications in the US seem unwise, for example in irrigation water for vegetables ('chemigation') and by drench and injection into trees in high doses. I'm not aware of these practices being approved in Europe.

    The stark, clear fact is that there is not one study of the factors affecting bee health in real, field conditions out there (and such studies have been done across the globe) that suggests that pesticides applied properly are damaging colonies. Not one. The stuff appearing in the press at the moment is pure fantasy.

    In the last few weeks we've seen a persistent campaign by a few zealots (McArthur, White, Chandler) to target this last class of pesticides in particular for distorted attention in the media and politicial action. This comes at a time of strife in some parts of the world over rising food prices and increasing worry over the looming gaps between global food requirement and the capacity to produce food. I'll put on record now that their grandchildren will look back on their activities with shame.

    Gavin

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    Senior Member chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gavin View Post
    The stark, clear fact is that there is not one study of the factors affecting bee health in real, field conditions out there (and such studies have been done across the globe) that suggests that pesticides applied properly are damaging colonies. Not one.
    Happy new year Gavin. (in france we have till the end of january for wishing it)

    Concerning the field studies that you know of, the longest has been carried out over how many years?

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    I think the key phrase here is 'properly applied'. Not every farmer (especially in the developing world) follows the instructions. That said, commercial farmers can't afford the losses that hobby gardeners and allotmenteers accept. I choose to garden as organically as possible but have to accept that sometimes I will get no gooseberries if the sawflies are bad (and I don't have time to pick them off) or the carrot fly will decimate the carrots. It doesn't really matter if it's a bad year for potato blight because I can go to the co-op and buy potatoes, etc., grown by farmers who use chemicals. The organic options are far too expensive for me and reflect what everyone's food would cost if the whole world grew food to organic standards. It would be lovely if we could all grow food without pesticides but it's the same thing as thinking it would be nice if there was less pollution but still using our cars to get around. All we can do is try to drive less polluting cars, use them as little as possible, etc. The same goes for food production, as far as I can see.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by gavin View Post
    The stark, clear fact is that there is not one study of the factors affecting bee health in real, field conditions out there (and such studies have been done across the globe) that suggests that pesticides applied properly are damaging colonies. Not one. The stuff appearing in the press at the moment is pure fantasy.
    My concern at the moment is that actually what we might be seeing is an ideological "fight" being dressed up as "wont someone think of the bees". It's certainly starting to bear the hallmarks of one.

    Now I fully accept Trog's point and, for that matter, the points raised by the study into the efficacy of the BBKA's supposed aims in it's "endorsement" of several brands of pyrethoids.

    The difficulty as your average member of Joe Public, is that it is very easy to dress something up as Science as the old dihydrogen Monoxide at the less serious end or ID and even MMR at the other seem to illustrate.

    I do think it is telling that across multiple different forums, no one can give a straight answer to what happens when Neonicotinoids are banned, preferring instead to bring out that big book of strawman arguments and accompanying ad hominem attacks with a side measure of hyperbole for good luck while they paste yet another article verbatim that supports their point of view conveniently overlooking the media's recent track record when it comes to investigating, interpreting and reporting on "scientific" studies.

    I'm a beekeeper, so no-one is going to convince me that any pesticide is good for my bees at any level of exposure, but I'm also a realist and quite interested to see what the logical outcome of this is.

    Is the "ban neonicotinoids" lobby's ultimate aim that we dance round cow horns at midnight instead of using any pesticides? And if so, how do they propose that we, to quote Bob Geldof, feed the world? Or because the initial losers in that will be brown people in a country far away, doesn't that matter?

    From the supposed reports into pesticides that I have managed to read in any detail, the main area of commonality to me appears to be the effects of Nosema Ceranae in combination with other factors yet that seems to be of little concern to those claiming to be primarily interested in Bee welfare.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gavin View Post
    This comes at a time of strife in some parts of the world over rising food prices and increasing worry over the looming gaps between global food requirement and the capacity to produce food. I'll put on record now that their grandchildren will look back on their activities with shame.

    Gavin
    Well right on cue here is the front page from today's paper.

    World grain reserves fall.

    Maize price rises 64% in 6 months, lowest reserves for 15 years.
    Wheat up 94% in 6 months.
    Rice up 17%.

    People will go hungry in this scenario.

    If you argue for the elimination of pesticides I think it is only reasonable to put something else in place to maintain or increase current levels of food production.
    A couple of years ago locals hijacked a goods train by blocking the line as it passed through a poor district and they made off with sacks of maize.
    And Mexico is a mid level economy. What must be happening in Africa.

    I have tried to produce as much of my own food as possible without chemicals on an allotment and working up to two or three acres. It is not easy.

    I wonder how many of the cut and paste bandits have tried this.
    They don't seem to care much for field studies with regard to evidence against neonics so I presume they don't care much for field studies with regard to pesticide free food production levels either.
    There is no argument from me with regard to the superiority of organically produced pesticide free food but how do you maintain production levels?

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