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Thread: BBKA Pesticde Decision

  1. #101

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    Jon wrote:
    Not necessarily over vast time scales.
    I believe it happens on a regular basis.
    Bits of viral dna can get incorporated into other genomes.
    DNA is just a series of base pairs irrespective of its origin.

    Gavin wrote;

    I believe that Jon was trying to describe a purely natural process.

    Hi
    Jon's statement was a description? Lots of believing going on! Hmmmmmmmmmmmm?? Trust me I'm a ????? or something.

    Eric

  2. #102
    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric McArthur View Post
    J
    Jon's statement was a description? Lots of believing going on! Hmmmmmmmmmmmm?? Trust me I'm a ????? or something.
    Yup, trust me I'm a Doctor and trust Jon he's a sensible, thoughtful fellow with some biology training.

    Maori et al. 2007 Just click and find yourself in a new world.

    G.

  3. #103
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    Hello Eric
    The hive had to be moved because it was in the wrong location and I informed the owner that any bee losses could be blamed on neonicotinoid pesticides.

  4. #104

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    Hi Gavin
    Your reply to justify the retro-viruses gets zilch Brownie Points. You get two more shots then you are out! Your paper discusses same species divergence! The subject is exotic genes!
    Eric
    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;

    Reciprocal sequence exchange between non-retro viruses and hosts leading to the appearance of new host phenotypes
    Eyal Maoria, , Edna Tannea, and Ilan Sela , a,
    aVirus Laboratory, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Faculty of Agricultural, Food and Environmental Quality Sciences, Rehovot 76100, Israel


    Abstract
    Divergence among individuals of the same species may be linked to positional retrotransposition into different loci in different individuals. Here we add to recent reports indicating that individual variance occurs due to the integration of non-retroviral (potyviral) RNAs into the host genome via RNA recombination followed by retrotransposition. We report that in bees (Apis mellifera), approximately 30% of all tested populations carry a segment of a dicistrovirus in their genome and have thus become virus-resistant. Reciprocally, segments of host sequences have been found within defective-interfering-like sequences of a dicistrovirus. Similarly, host sequences were found fused to potyviral sequences, previously described integrated into their host genome. A potential, continuous RNA exchange leading to divergence is discussed.
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    When I was a student the most important aspect of passing exams was – READ THE QUESTION. In my day one got no marks for waffle or worse – in your case here “worse!” is the key word!
    I have pasted the item under discussion to eliminate any possible misunderstanding of the issue!
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    Jon wrote
    The interspecies transfer of genetic material does not worry me so much as long as there is strict regulation.
    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;
    Eric wrote
    What Monsanto et al are about is firing exotic genes from fish, fowl, even human sources into organisms (plants in this case - instant evolution!) which would not carry them in Nature - except, to concede your point, over vast time scales!

  5. #105

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    Hi Lindasy

    Woe is me! - 300 Brownie points from Gavin for that inane observation!

    Eric

  6. #106
    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    What *are* you on about? I'm not diving into a discourse on GM, but responding to #101 above and the posts that came before.

    The integration of foreign DNA is something that takes place naturally. That was Jon's point and you didn't seem to accept that.

    What man has been doing in the last couple of decades is something special, of course, but Jon's point was that it does happen naturally too.

    G.

  7. #107
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric McArthur View Post
    Your reply to justify the retro-viruses gets zilch Brownie Points. You get two more shots then you are out! Your paper discusses same species divergence! The subject is exotic genes!
    I feel a rerun of the inbreeding thread coming on!

    That article Gavin posted could be crucial to the understanding of CCD.
    The paper showed that 30% of sampled bees had a chunk of genetic material which originated in IAPV. (a virus)
    You will remember that IAPV was one of the first suspects throught to be involved in CCD.
    the interesting thing here is that the bees with a chunk of RNA from IAPV has resistance to this virus.
    Mull over that.
    So the question for you Eric is, How did RNA (genetic material) from Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus get into the bee genome?
    Do you think Monsanto put it there?

    Eric there is no such thing as 'exotic' genes
    All genes are made out of a sequence of 4 elements arranged in pairs.

  8. #108

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    Jon wrote:
    I feel a rerun of the inbreeding thread coming on!
    .............................................
    Hi Jon
    I don’t believe it! You are still in denial that a small number of honey bee colonies in a closed, totally isolated population, losing 50% of the colonies every year will not become grossly inbred!! Truly remarkable!
    .................................................. ........
    Jon wrote:
    Not necessarily over vast time scales.
    I believe it happens on a regular basis.
    Bits of viral dna can get incorporated into other genomes.
    DNA is just a series of base pairs irrespective of its origin.
    .................................................. ................
    Eric wrote
    I liked your reference to "Bits of viral dna can get incorporated into other genomes" - just the stuff that the Monsanto blunderbuss shoot into its - "to be modified" target plants. This is science? - It smacks of the electric shock treatment used by promordial mind doctors, or worse the highly qualified barbers and quacks who bled seriously ill patients to cleanse their bodies - which usually became dead quite quickly after the cure!
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    Gavin wrote:
    I believe that Jon was trying to describe a purely natural process.
    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
    Hi Gavin
    Bits of viral dna do not promote the transfer of fish, fowl or human genes into plants NATURALLY!
    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

    Just a few reassuring words about GM crops and viruses.
    Revelations concerning the CaMV recombination hotspot (3) have prompted us to consider the safety implications of the CaMV promoter. That is all the more urgent as CaMV promoter is in practically all transgenic crops already released commercially or undergoing field trials.
    Phylogenetically, CaMV belongs to a group of caulimoviruses most closely related to the hepadnaviruses of animals, which includes the human hepatitis B virus.
    .................................................. .............................
    Check this link – Monsanto admits that GMOs damage the liver of mammals.
    http://www.gmwatch.org/gm-videos/6-m...e-videos/12072
    ‘’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’ ’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’ ’’’’’’’’’’
    The effect of an insecticidal GM crop is constantly present in the crop throughout growth rather than intermittently sprayed, there is a concern that insects will be completely absent while the crop is growing. This will affect beneficial insects as well as pests, and small rodents and birds could suffer lack of food. Combined with the neonics. This scenario is already upon us!
    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;
    Eugenics Alert: The use of GMO Food to deliberately sterilise humans
    http://socioecohistory.wordpress.com...ld-population/

    One long-standing project of the US Government has been to perfect a genetically-modified variety of corn, the diet staple in Mexico and many other Latin American countries. The corn has been field tested in tests financed by the US Department of Agriculture along with a small California bio-tech company named Epicyte. Announcing his success at a 2001 press conference, the president of Epicyte, Mitch Hein, pointing to his GMO corn plants, announced, “We have a hothouse filled with corn plants that make anti-sperm antibodies.”

    Hein explained that they had taken antibodies from women with a rare condition known as immune infertility, isolated the genes that regulated the manufacture of those infertility antibodies, and, using genetic engineering techniques, had inserted the genes into ordinary corn seeds used to produce corn plants. In this manner, in reality they produced a concealed contraceptive embedded in corn meant for human consumption. “Essentially, the antibodies are attracted to surface receptors on the sperm,” said Hein. “They latch on and make each sperm so heavy it cannot move forward. It just shakes about as if it was doing the lambada.” Hein claimed it was a possible solution to world “over-population.” The moral and ethical issues of feeding it to humans in Third World poor countries without their knowing it countries he left out of his remarks.

    Spermicides hidden in GMO corn provided to starving Third World populations through the generosity of the Gates’ foundation, Rockefeller Foundation and Kofi Annan’s AGRA or vaccines that contain undisclosed sterilization agents are just two documented cases of using vaccines or GMO seeds to “reduce population.”
    ................................................

  9. #109

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    I'm trying to bring myself up to speed with current opinions regarding best practice and the most environmentally friendly way to keep honey bees. I need a resource(s) that draws on local best practice tied into informed debate on the raft of environmental issues that undoubtedly surround beekeeping.

    Unfortunately threads that reel from mass sterilisation of humankind to global conspiracy theories cloud the often pertinent and very real issues being discussed. In saying that I don't deny they may be a real side issue, only that they make it difficult for the majority to plough their way through the posts to extract any meaningful information regrading the aims of the thread.

    I acknowledge managing these debates in a transparent and fair manner is difficult -hats off to the moderator/administrator in this case. However, if there is a consensus to debate the current data and science regarding these issues surrounding honey bees in a focussed manner - I'll sign up for that. The proposal to create a folder containing current scientific/agricultural themes seems fine to me. Managing it to include all viewpoints while maintaining focus may provide difficult.

  10. #110
    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    Thanks Alex.

    Pre-Eric we were achieving the aim of having rational, sensible debate in a better way than other places on the internet, I believe. To some extent having Eric here letting off stream has allowed us to expose his opinions to the debate that never properly came when he simply held forth in the SBA's magazine, so I've seen this open and rapid challenging of his misconceptions as a positive thing. For that matter anyone challenging mine, or Jon's for example, is also doing us all a service. That protracted inbreeding thread was my fault, as I brought private correspondence here out into the open in frustration at his inability to listen to what he's being told. However, we now see that he just simply doesn't remember the outcome of these debates, and comes charging back with more confusion based on incredible conspiracy theories.

    These kinds of irrational views have a real impact on communities of beekeepers and society as a whole. Some of these misconceptions run deep and are hard to shift, as I've been finding out in other ways. Deep misconceptions driven by forceful hot-heads, drawing on the receptive nature of their audience for their particular nonsense. We are now in the bizarre position of have a goodly number of MPs signing up to an Early Day Motion built on the propaganda and misinformation of a bunch of climate change deniers, fundamentalist anti-pesticide people and anti-corporate campaigners. The scientific justification for their action is weak - and if we want to see the truth of their position it needs exposure and debate.

    I think that I'll start a new thread on thoughts on the development of the forum, to get the discussion away from all that BBKA and conspiracy theory nonsense.

    This one is now closed as it has drifted far from the original topic.

    Gavin

    PS For anyone wondering whether the conspiracy theorists and their zillions of copy-cat websites actually were right, the Guardian actually spoke to an Epicyte executive at the time:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2001/sep/09/gm.food

    They started by researching sexual health products which suppress viruses, especially STD viruses like the papilloma virus and herpes virus. They tried extending this to develop an anti-sperm product so that they had a combined anti-viral and anti-sperm product to be used in items bought for the purposes of contraception. The company shut down in 2004. But hey, let's not stop the conspiracy theorists and nutters continuing to propagate the myth that the US government was funding research to sterilise the Third World. Whether or not the Vatican had a hand in shutting down the company was never revealed (Joke!! Please don't start another internet myth based on that one ... ).

    So this thread stops here. Sufficient people have been trying to move the debate back to reality and back to beekeeping. There are other places on the forum to go with this kind of garbage should you wish to debate it further, so please start new threads in the appropriate place if you have more to say.

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