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Thread: Here we go again!

  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric McArthur View Post
    Hi Jon
    Using the old adage – “A picture is worth a thousand words! How many words do you reckon a video is worth? Follow the link and tell me again that bees do not visit grasses for water. Read the book! Dead bees and birds are also deadly dull!
    Eric
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZZ54VS8qMQ&NR=1
    If the link doesn't work - no worries Google - bees guttation corn grass

    Eric

  2. #12
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Eric you must have better eyesight than me.
    All I can see is an out of focus bee moving around in out of focus grass in the lens of a shaky photographer.
    How do you know it is not collecting pollen. That's what it appears to be doing.
    Did Gavin not mention recently finding grass pollen in pollen samples he looked at?

    How many times in your forty plus year beekeeping career have you seen bees collecting guttation water and how many times have you seen them collect from other sources such as puddles and pond edges.
    I'm not suggesting that bees 'never' collect guttation water but in my experience it is not usual. If it isn't common, it's unlikely to be a cause of bee decline.
    Oh yes, bee decline.
    40,000 to 120,000 colonies in the UK over the past 30 months.
    My own experience is an increase from 4 to 30 in that time, now back to 21 after combining some nucs and having a few dwindle away in the autumn. And I have sold about 8 nucs as well.
    I will bet you that the main cause of bee loss in the uk is not pesticides. It is non treatment or inadequate treatment of varroa mites.
    If you read biobees.com it seems to be a long list of 'natural beekeepers' aka, non varroa treaters, losing their bees and blaming Bayer.

    Here is a better example although it looks more like raindrops or irrigation water on the leaves rather than guttation droplets. if you look at the second video you will see the guttation droplet is exuded from the tip of the maize seedling.
    I have sown and cultivated acres of maize in Mexico and I still grow a couple of hundred plants on my allotment where I have most of my (thriving) bees. Actually on reflection, that is definitely not guttation water. Time for another red herring alert thanks to ProBeekepersGermany




    This is a Girolami influenced chap feeding poison to bees and falling off his chair with surprise when they die.



    None of this is new news Eric.

    There was a thread on the bbka site about two years ago titled German researchers kills bees by hand - blame Bayer
    Last edited by Jon; 16-12-2010 at 10:25 PM.

  3. #13

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    Hi All
    Varroa is a major problem, and so is the Beebase advice relative to keeping the mite population below a 1000 mite damage level. With this number of mites in a colony entering winter, the colony is doomed.
    The legal”gray area” of the oxalic acid situation discourages many beekeepers from using this critically important treatment.
    That formic acid is still illegal is a travesty. Beekeepers need the tools and the correct advice to weather Varroa. The pesticides problem does not help.
    .................................................. .
    Jon
    It is highly unusual for bees to drink guttation water.
    .................................................. .............
    This is a purely subjective opinion.
    .................................................. .................................................. ...............Jon How many times in your forty plus year beekeeping career have you seen bees collecting guttation water?
    .................................................. .......................................
    I know a number of beekeepers who are in denial that bees forage on hawthorn, despite the fact that in many seasons in Scotland it can produce a mono floral harvest. It’s results that count.
    .................................................. ..............................................
    Jon Are the neonicotinoids really worse than the ones they are replacing?
    .................................................. .................................................. .........
    Have a look at the fall in honey yields of French beekeepers during the years 1994 until imidacloprid was banned!
    .................................................. .................................................. .....
    .Jon 40,000 to 120,000 colonies in the UK over the past 30 months.
    .................................................. .........
    When the Swedish government carried out the first population Census in the late 1900 it was assumed that the population numbered around 20 million. The Establishment went into shock when the true figure of 2 million emerged. Check it out!!
    .................................................. ............
    Jon Might be difficult to separate the negative effects of monoculture from the negative effects of pesticides.
    .................................................. ..............................
    Classic double negative!
    .................................................. ....

    Hi Jon

    Have your say. I’ll be back soon!

    Eric

  4. #14
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric McArthur View Post

    Have your say. I’ll be back soon!
    Eric
    Was that you in Terminator?

    I know a number of beekeepers who are in denial that bees forage on hawthorn,
    Mine forage on hawthorn, but not every year. I think they collect more pollen than nectar but you can get a crop from it so I am with you on that one.

    The legal”gray area” of the oxalic acid situation discourages many beekeepers from using this critically important treatment.
    I don't think to many worry about that. It is just a hive cleaning process after all and that is quite legal!!

    I treated 21 colonies and nucs this week, total cost about 75p and most of that was for the 400g of sugar in the mix.
    You can't beat a varroa treatment at a cost of under 4p per colony. I had a look today and very few mites have dropped so far. The strongest colony I have had dropped 25 so that is a result and it will probably drop some more. 25 mites could grow to 1600 between March and September and as you know, 1000 mites is in the problem area.
    Eric, you are different from a lot of the pesticide headbangers in that you sensibly treat for varroa.
    A lot of beekeepers are losing colonies to varroa and blaming Bayer.

    When the Swedish government carried out the first population Census in the late 1900 it was assumed that the population numbered around 20 million. The Establishment went into shock when the true figure of 2 million emerged. Check it out!!
    I doff my cap to you with regard to your knowledge of early 20th century Sweden. Remind me again what it has to do with bee decline.

    So you reckon the british countryside is littered with empty bee boxes.
    Last edited by Jon; 16-12-2010 at 10:27 PM.

  5. #15

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    Hi Jon

    Jon
    I don't think to many worry about that. It is just a hive cleaning process after all and that is quite legal!!
    -----------------------------------------------------
    Interesting! When did you start using oxalic acid as a hive cleaner – powerful stuff if 50 mls cleans a hive, even an empty hive. Do you use a cloth soaked in the recommended 50ml, 3.5% solution on the interior walls?
    .................................................. ............................................
    Jon
    The strongest colony I have had dropped 25 so that is a result and it will probably drop some more. 25 mites could grow to 1600 between March and September and as you know, 1000 mites is in the problem area.
    .................................................. ......
    Your 26 mite drop inferred as an overwintering mite population, implies for a perfect understanding of mite population dynamics! What is your mite drop per day to permit such a guesstimate? 1000 mites as a blanket recommendation with no qualifying reference to overwintering colonies as in Beebase – is not “ a problem area” it is a “disaster area”!
    .................................................. .........................
    Jon
    Eric, you are different from a lot of the pesticide head bangers.....
    .................................................. .............
    Todays head banger - tomorrows soothsayer!
    History is punctuated with head bangers – like Galileo, Marco Polo, Dzierzon, Karl von Frisch; the list is actually endless. Sadly you do not seem to warrant a place! These people were just a bit more observant that their contemporaries!
    .................................................. ..

  6. #16
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Eric.
    Re. the mites. the colony dropped 25 mites 2 days after oxalic treatment.
    A natural drop of 25 in December and the colony would be at death's door.

    Take 25 mites in march and assume as we are told that numbers can double every month.

    March 25 50 100 200 400 800 1600 September

    If you start with 100 mites in Spring you will be at critical point by June or July.
    Best get rid of the wee devils at a rate of 5ml of Oxalic per seam of bees.

    History is punctuated with head bangers – like Galileo, Marco Polo, Dzierzon, Karl von Frisch;
    They were people who went against the flow.
    The assumption that pesticides are behind bee problems and ccd is now the orthodoxy in beekeeping. (not everywhere but certainly on the forums, bee-L a notable exception)
    Those who go against the flow are the people who challenge that assumption.

  7. #17

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    History is punctuated with head bangers – like Galileo, Marco Polo, Dzierzon, Karl von Frisch;
    ..................................................
    Jon
    They were people who went against the flow.

    I am against not just the flow but against the torrent of pro- pesticide /pro- GM opinion by many of the active members of this forum.
    .................................................. ................................
    Jon
    If you start with 100 mites in Spring you will be at critical point by June or July.
    ................................................
    I learned to suck eggs some time ago!
    That is why I have advised beekeepers for many years to treat their colonies with formic acid in mid April
    You never answered my previous question. When did you start using oxalic acid?
    .................................................. .....
    Regards
    Eric

  8. #18
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric McArthur View Post
    HWhen did you start using oxalic acid?
    Eric
    Last winter was the first time I used it and I had no winter losses last year.

    I'm just in from checking some colonies and the one which had dropped 25 on Thursday had another 60 on the board today so I am very glad that one got treated. The other colonies I looked at only had 4 or 5 mites on the board, or none at all in some cases.

    Re. pesticide headbanging, I am not 'pro pesticide' My position is that I think the evidence is scant for pesticides being involved in bee decline. My position is the one going against the flow as 99% of posters on the various forums take it for granted that pesticides are to blame - without unduly bothering themselves by looking carefully at the evidence.
    As I mentioned in another thread colony numbers have greatly increased in the UK this past couple of years.
    I think it is important to separate US problems from European problems as the situation over there is dire.

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    Last winter was the first time I used it and I had no winter losses last year.
    ...............................................
    It took your ‘oxalic penny’ a long time to drop - much like my ‘alleles penny’. The Swiss actually promulgated the 3.5% oxalic acid trickle in 1999.
    ............................................
    Jon wrote:

    I think the evidence is scant for pesticides being involved in bee decline. My position
    I think it is important to separate US problems from European problems as the situation over there is dire.
    .................................................. .......

    The long awaited link between imidacloprid and bee death has at last been made. Despite the Prof’s crystal ball! This work was caried out in Europe!

    2010.
    Interactions between Nosema microspores and aneonicotinoid weaken honeybees (Apis mellifera)Dr Cedric Alaux2. Alaux, C., J.-L. Brunet, C. Dussaubat, F. Mondetd, S.
    Tchamitchand, M. Cousind, J. Brillard, A. Baldy, L.P. Belzunces & Y. Le Conte -

    .......Consequently, we tested the integrative effects of an infectious organism (Nosema sp) and an insecticide (imidacloprid) on honeybee health. We demonstrated, for the first time, that a synergistic effect between both agents, at concentrations encountered in nature, significantly weakened honey bees. The combination of Nosema, a pathogen whose importance is emerging, with imidacloprid caused a significantly higher rate of individual mortality and energetic stress in the short term than either agent alone.

    Regards

    Eric

  10. #20
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Eric.
    Re Oxalic pennies dropping and 1999, Varoa did not arrive in N Ireland until 2002

    The long awaited link between imidacloprid and bee death has at last been made
    Eric. We all know Imidacloprid will kill bees. The question is whether bees are exposed to it at harmful levels.

    That study you cite is interesting and I presume you know it is a lab study rather than a field study.
    Bees were artificially infected with nosema and deliberately exposed to Imidacloprid.

    Here's a link to the full study in case you have only come across the abstract.

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...9.02123.x/full

    PS Eric.
    Just noticed you already posted that 'long awaited' link over a week ago!

    http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...ghlight=nosema

    I hope you are not spamming.
    We will need to ask Gav for one of those roundup ready threads if you are.
    Last edited by Jon; 20-12-2010 at 03:11 PM.

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