Feeding Fondant

[Rosie]

If I am informed correctly the bees require water to process fondant - so feeding fondant increases the flying time of the last remaining bees that need their energy for raising the next generation. And if feeding is done to promote brood production this is nought without enough pollen flow.
If you need to feed now (ie they are starving) you did a very poor job in August / Sept feeding. Or skimped on feed - which is frankly stupid -

I think you are being a bit hard there Calum. I'm sure bees need water to process fondant but they also need it to process stored honey. Furthermore they would not store fondant at this time of year - they will just consume what they need and when they are out of reach of honey.

I weigh my hives in the Autumn and just feed the light ones and feed just enough to get them through the winter. This year though they had such a poor late summer and Autumn that they had no young bees when I fed them and they used most of the feed converting it to young winter bees. I ran out of time and couldn't get enough weight into some of them so they have been given fondant in the last few days in plenty of time to feed them when they start laying again.

It's easy to criticise from afar but every colony is different and every location is different and every season is different. It's up to the beeekeeper to adjust his management to suit prevailing conditions and if that means feeding fondant at Christmas then that's what you must do.

Rosie

[POPZ]

Calum all you say sounds pretty good and I think that nowadays many of us also reckon to be keepers as opposed to farmers. Leaving enough winter stores for the colony is essential but if they are clustering too hard and cannot reach some of those stores they may well starve whilst surrounded by honey. And as Rosie has just said, if they have sufficient stores and can use them, they are unlikely to go for fondant.

I use open mesh floors with a board below on the ground underneath. A daily inspection shows where and the amount, that the ladies are eating by the position and quantity of crumbs that drop through. Plenty of crumbs so far this year, so not eating the fondant yet.

I think adding fondant at this time of the year is 'keeping', it is trying to cover all eventualaties (can't spell it!). Time will tell!

[Calum]

Hi Rosie,
you are maybe right there I may be being a bit hard, but I really do believe that there is alot of faffing about that does the bees no good at all.

It would suprise me though if the fondant is closer to the bees than the feed on the frames they are sitting on. Also there is a danger of fondant attracting moisture/ evaporation in the hive and dripping on the winter bunch which is really unhealthy for them.
Sure if your bees are starving feed them, if not leave them be. Or let a weak one go and use its stores to strengthen others.

I appreciate your point about every area being different, here was a poor year aswell. Every one of my colonies got between 12 and 18kg of feed, some took 28kg providing me with spares for emergancies. A good colony will take the feed they need for the winter in two days. If a colony were so far behind as you describe I'd consider combining.

On saturday I'll be visiting two local beekeepers here that have 480 and 320 carnica colonies. The latter overwinters all his colonies on 6 Zander frames (477 mm x 220 mm)- and where his bees are -20°C over extended periods is quite normal. They dont need much to get by on.

You may be right I may be wrong, foremost I want to make people stop and think before they do something that they might otherwise assume without question is a good thing for their bees.

[Calum]

Leaving enough winter stores for the colony is essential but if they are clustering too hard and cannot reach some of those stores they may well starve whilst surrounded by honey.

mmm how does fondant above the frames help against this - unless the bee space between two brood boxes on top of each other too great and the fondant is placed inbetween? If the cluster is too small to move around between frames, is not starvation in this case is a secondary cause and not the root cause of the loss?

I think adding fondant at this time of the year is farming, it is trying to cover all eventualaties (can't spell it!). Time will tell!

I understand but I think it carries its own risks and may not be helpful or needed in most cases. As a last resort fine, but otherwise a practice that can be harmful.

Here in Germany the prevailing thinking on winter and spring feeding to 'stimulate' colonies is viewed as counterproductive by the bee insitutes.

[Rosie]

Here in Germany the prevailing thinking on winter and spring feeding to 'stimulate' colonies is viewed as counterproductive by the bee insitutes.

I have always believed that thin syrup stimulated egg laying because is simulates a nectar flow. I've never heard of fondant being used to stimulate anything - apart from survival. I agree with you that in an ideal world you would not need fondant or even syrup in the Autumn. In fact if the bees had no excuse for not being able to look after themselves it could be argued that they should be allowed to die but the deal I have with my bees is that I help them in the occasional bad year and they give me a surplus in good ones. On the whole I do best out of the deal.

Rosie

[Calum]

Hallo Rosie,
yes I agree that syrup is more likely to start of laying, that is why I was careful to just say feeding rather than specifying what was being fed (so no to winter feeding and no to spring stimulation).
Colonies that are well prepared in late august or early september should need no feed just now in any form. Even if one colony was slow on the uptake or put the feed straight into brood production it could have been helped out with frames of stores from a stronger colony (assuming the stronger colony would be fed more). Of course this relies on feeding the colonies before the summer surplus begins to die off (and lare aug and early sept has to be adjusted for latitude and seasonal variations).

As said I would always try to save a starving colony preferably with a frame of food or with fondant as a last resort.

I want to provoke thought and dicussion about the need to give fondant especially during a period when the bees need their peace and quiet.
Also if they really need it now then feeding fondant only addresses the symptom not the cause.

[Rosie]

Hi Calum
I would not take issue with much of that but I weigh all my colonies at intervals during the winter and have quite a good idea of how much they need. I knew that I had failed to get enough stores into a few of them in the Autumn so took the opportunity of slapping on 3kg of fondant while I had the hives open for oxalic acid treatment. They did not need the fondant at that stage but I knew they would before the next nectar flow so it saved me having to disturb them a second time. Just out of interest I can tell you that one apiary of 13 colonies had consumed less than 1kg of stores each during the months of November and December. This was in spite of the coldest December for 100 years.

People often try to tell me that cold weather causes stores to be consumed more quickly but I never see that. I think stores are mainly consumed when there is brood around and cold weather reduces egg laying and hence makes the food go further.

Rosie

[Gscot]

Being an novice beekeeper and trying to do the right thing and getting most of my information via. the internet
Jobs to do for January...... Check bees have enough feed and if on the top frames feed fondant... I got this from a scottish beekeeping tip.My bees were on the top frames.
I fed them in Sep,Oct. with as much sugar syrup as they would take and the super was full.
With my inexpierance as a beekeeper and not being able to tell from lifting the hive for weight and been told not to open the hive and remove frames in cold conditions It was just to give pease of mind. Number 1 reason for loosing bees.....Starving to death....I got this from another beekeeping tip.
The hive was choking with bees and I thought The more bees in the hive the more feed they will eat.

[Calum]

Hi Gscot,
it is really tough to judge the state of your hives when you start out, I remember well.
I'd suggest weighing empty equipment to work out the weight of your hives and frames.
Once you have done that you can use a spring scale to work out the weight of your (full) hives.
The difference is the weight of stores and bees in your colony give or take.
Dont forget lifting one side up only gives half the weight!

Larger winter nests use less feed as they are more efficient at keeping themselves warm apparently. But they rapidly use up stores in spring though as they can produce more brood due to their numbers (something to watch in March).
If you have not put the fondant on yet I would weigh your colonies, or just try lifting one end up - if they are about the same weight or more than a case of beer they are fine for now (you can always feed in Feb.) - unless your gear is really heavy.


This will provoke some discussion but number one killer of bees is poor beekeeping, number two varroa (often the result of reason number one).

You'll find that if you get two beekeepers together and ask them a question you will get three answers and an argument. There are many paths to Rome as they say, bees thankfully can be quite robust and put up with alot of interference.

oh and dont beleive anything you read in the internet (unless I wrote it of course ). There are so many conflicting opinions you'll end up confused and unsure - better team up with a experienced beekeeper in your area and follow his methods religiously untill you are happy to try out other methods you feel are logical and in line with your ideas for keeping bees.

Rosie,
"They did not need the fondant at that stage but I knew they would before the next nectar flow so it saved me having to disturb them a second time. Just out of interest I can tell you that one apiary of 13 colonies had consumed less than 1kg of stores each during the months of November and December. This was in spite of the coldest December for 100 years."
My point exactly I#d just leave them and give them some feed in Feb or early March on a warm day - only if they need it and then when they need it!

[Rosie]

Rosie,
"They did not need the fondant at that stage but I knew they would before the next nectar flow so it saved me having to disturb them a second time. Just out of interest I can tell you that one apiary of 13 colonies had consumed less than 1kg of stores each during the months of November and December. This was in spite of the coldest December for 100 years."
My point exactly I#d just leave them and give them some feed in Feb or early March on a warm day - only if they need it and then when they need it!

Calum, I fear you are weakening your argument now by getting a wee bit pedantic. The choice between feeding while the hive was open and feeding later in the faint hope that the bees might have an exceptional winter and not need the feed is a matter of personal preference rather than a reasoned argument. By "faint hope" I really mean it as it would be the frst time in about 120 colony winters that they will have got by on such low stores. I would happily concede that I should have fed more in the autumn but we can't all be perfect all the time.

Rosie