Queenless hive or not?

[alancooper]

I need to decide whether to re-queen a productive hive. These are my hive records.
11/7/16 - e, l, sb; 9 frames with sb; temper good.
26/7/16 - 8 sealed Qcells; 7 frames with sb; temper good; to forestall possible swarming I harvested the Q swarm cells for incubator and apideas .
31/7/16 - sb only present and no sign of Q cell formation; fearing Q loss I added a vQ in a cage.
27/8/16 - no eggs or brood. This hive seems Qless - lots of bees, no brood, grumpy, but still bringing in pollen and still with drones.
So, do I wait longer in the hope that a possibly mated Q decides to lay in a still crowded hive (2 supers), or do I merge with an apidea and its laying Q before laying workers develop?
Alan.

[gavin]

I need to decide whether to re-queen a productive hive. These are my hive records.
11/7/16 - e, l, sb; 9 frames with sb; temper good.
26/7/16 - 8 sealed Qcells; 7 frames with sb; temper good; to forestall possible swarming I harvested the Q swarm cells for incubator and apideas .
31/7/16 - sb only present and no sign of Q cell formation; fearing Q loss I added a vQ in a cage.
27/8/16 - no eggs or brood. This hive seems Qless - lots of bees, no brood, grumpy, but still bringing in pollen and still with drones.
So, do I wait longer in the hope that a possibly mated Q decides to lay in a still crowded hive (2 supers), or do I merge with an apidea and its laying Q before laying workers develop?
Alan.

Hi Alan

Hard to be sure, other than you are missing things (which is normal for the inexperienced and even the experienced!). I guess that one explanation is ....

- you lost a swarm (timing could be clarified if no eggs and open brood 26 Jul)
- queen cell missed so you had a new virgin out 24 July or so
- with that timing a virgin could be right at the end of her mating window, or a recently mated queen is present but not yet laying

Is there a clear area of polished cells? If so it is getting late but there may yet be a queen to come into lay.

If there is no area of polished cells, try a test frame or fragment of comb wth eggs and larvae if you have can. Or if the brood area is disorganised with pollen and stores across the area, then perhaps risk using a spare queen. I have united an Apidea with a large colony, over newspaper over the feed hole of the crownboard above the supers - but using its queen in an introduction cage may be more reliable.

G.

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi Alan
If I find sealed queen cells, next I would look for eggs, then have a really good hunt for the queen
No queen and no eggs then taking off all the queen cells is probably a wrong move
Introducing virgin queens is tricky and when they are in a cage the bees might not feed them so they have to feed themselves
A month since the virgin went in looks like she didn't make it
As Gavin says put in a test frame of some kind with young larva
If they start cells take them down and put your apidea queen in the hive (using a push in cage if possible)
Merging the apidea is an unnecessary complication just let that raise a queen cell (usually just one) and you might have a fallback
Hope it works out

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[alancooper]

Gavin and DR,
Thanks for your very helpful comments, in particular checking: for eggs when swarm cells are produced (a definite miss); whether the brood area is disorganised with pollen and stores across the area (is this an indication that there is no Q around which workers can organise the brood nest?); for polished cells (does this indicate that there is a Q around which workers can organise the brood nest?).
Ah - the joys of bee-keeping and its unknowns.
Alan.

[gavin]

That is part of the joy - the continuous learning.

Yes, they help indicate queenlessness (or being queen-right). In their minds anyway. A test piece of comb is a better test.

[Adam]

As Gavin says, if there are polished cells where you would expect the queen to lay there's a pretty good chance that a queen is present. A test-frame will confirm and also help to ward off the possibility of laying workers developing.
IF there is a queen present there is a good chance that the introduced queen will be killed.

[Jon]

More than a good chance. It is 100% certain.

[alclosier]

By now they should be drawing q cells if q-

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[alancooper]

Yes - my plan is to look at the introduced frame this weekend then decide what to. I have an apidea with a mated/laying Q.

[alancooper]

An update on adding a frame of eggs is:
3/4/16 There were no Q cells on the test frame (just large larvae and sb) and no signs of a Q, eggs, or any sb in the brood box or the supers. There were masses of workers and occasional drones ( I do not think there was a swarm in July or recently). The brood frames had no brood but did have pollen and nectar, largely in the top half of brood frames. Some central brood frames had polished worker cells. Supers had capped honey and nectar).
Is it likely that in this crowded hive that: a Q (if present) has not been fertilised but is still signalling "Q substance" to the workers?; a fertile Q is present but is not laying because the hive does not need more brood to support yet?

I have an apidea with a laying Q and need to decide whether to put her into a poly nuc to over-winter or wait until I am sure about my problem hive. The least risky option seems to be to start the poly nuc. What odds would you give for each option?