New queen loose somewhere.

[The Drone Ranger]

Y
(Sorry - 3 days too late perhaps?)

Its the thought that counts

[Greengage]

Ill know more tomorrow and let you know.

[Greengage]

Ok that would make sence, As it now stands there is one and only one sealed queen cell in the hive that swarmed, I now assume the old queen killed the newly hatched queen before swarming, The old queen is in a nuc box in the same apiary and the hive that swarmed is now queenless exceppt for the sealed queen cell.
So if the newly sealed queen cell is a failure I could reunite the Nuc with the main hive in a few weeks, would I be right in my thinking, this would only occur if the sealed queen fails to emerge and mate.

Ok back to the drawing board, I revisited my Apiary yesterday Sunday, I observed a lot of bees flying around black current bush mmm that would make an interesting photo, But hold on when i got there there was a very large swarm hanging from the bush, so that was the end of the photos expedition, So where did it come from outside my apiary or inside, I checked my hive that I had a sealed queen cell and possible virgin queen, remember I moved the old queen to a Nuc, The sealed cell had hatched and bees were cleaning it out so I assume the swarm issued from here also there was less bees in it than the previous week. Now I placed the swarm in a Nuc along with a small frame of sealed brood I took from the origional hive hopeing the will stay put. Could I still have a new virgin in the hive, why did it swarm again, Iam positive there was only one sealed queen cell in the hive as last week I had brushed off all the bees in each frame to check and removed all queen cells and anything that looked like a queen cell leaving only one unopened queen cell. Iam not complaining as Iam increasing my stock of bees but very curious to know whats going on here. Anyone got any suggestions.

[Jon]

You mostlikely missed a queen cell. Very easy to miss one especially if it is tiny. Roger Patterson has some good photos of emergency queen cells and they are so small you could easily miss one. A cell like this will produce a queen not much bigger than a worker.

[Greengage]

Ok thanks, where could I se the pics are they on the internet, Small Queen, but can she be successful in keeping the colony together.

[Jon]

Very small queens usually don't mate properly. I saw the pics of the cells in one of Roger's presentations somewhere.

[fatshark]

Some of the smallest queens I've seen were raised in mating nucs after removing the queen that was mated in there i.e. I let the mating nuc raise their own, subsequently replacing her when the next round of cells was ready. Although not hugely satisfactory, it beats having to restock mating nucs twice a season if you're just raising a few queens at intervals. These tiddlers did mate successfully but were pretty stunted ... but they lasted long enough to keep the colony going.

[gavin]

Ok back to the drawing board, I revisited my Apiary yesterday Sunday, I observed a lot of bees flying around black current bush mmm that would make an interesting photo, But hold on when i got there there was a very large swarm hanging from the bush, so that was the end of the photos expedition, So where did it come from outside my apiary or inside, I checked my hive that I had a sealed queen cell and possible virgin queen, remember I moved the old queen to a Nuc, The sealed cell had hatched and bees were cleaning it out so I assume the swarm issued from here also there was less bees in it than the previous week. Now I placed the swarm in a Nuc along with a small frame of sealed brood I took from the origional hive hopeing the will stay put. Could I still have a new virgin in the hive, why did it swarm again, Iam positive there was only one sealed queen cell in the hive as last week I had brushed off all the bees in each frame to check and removed all queen cells and anything that looked like a queen cell leaving only one unopened queen cell. Iam not complaining as Iam increasing my stock of bees but very curious to know whats going on here. Anyone got any suggestions.

Here's my take on this, no need to postulate small queen cells.

Fri 13th. Your colony had prepared to swarm but delayed until the first virgin was ready to emerge. Disturbing the colony stopped the workers inhibiting the emergence and she emerged while you inspected. As the old queen was still in residence she may have killed that first virgin, not sure.

Sun 15th. The colony swarmed and on this day the old queen laid her last egg.

From reading your posts, I'm guessing you are visiting weekly and didn't intervene to remove additional queen cells? See post #7.

Sun 15th to Thurs 19th. The colony makes new queen cells from the eggs laid by the old queen, including in worker cells which is something I see regularly in such colonies.

Sun 22nd. They're off with the first virgin in a cast, leaving behind the new queen cell(s).

Colonies that have started swarming preparations are usually determined to do so. Almost all will continue to make more queen cells while they can. What I try to do is leave only open queen cells so that I can leave it a full week or a bit more before returning. No virgins will hatch in that time. If you leave a sealed cell you need to do something else: return in about five days to remove all additional cells, or put a queen excluder under the brood box if you don't plan returning early to deal with the additional queen cells.

[Greengage]

Thanks Gavin, I think Iam on top of the situation, I have the swarm housed in a Nuc and they are stil there as of this morning so thats three days, I think they will stay put. I have the old Queen also in a Nuc and she also seems happy (In so far as she is calm on the drawn comb and the bees seem content not that I can read their minds) As to the origional hive where the swarm came from there are no eggs but some capped brood and uncapped brood, I will leave this for a week to see what happens checking for queen cells on Thursday thats 4 days since last inspection if nothing is happening thereI may unite it with the swarm. Thanks to all for advice.
I have another story to tell from a different apiary 9Ill post under different thread) but ill wait to see what happens today, Suffice to say I was playing around with double Brood boxs and created a monster or perfect storm more tomorrow when I figure out what to do.
P.S Jon, Mark Zucker tells me its your Birthday. "Happy Birthday".

[gavin]

As to the origional hive where the swarm came from there are no eggs but some capped brood and uncapped brood, I will leave this for a week to see what happens checking for queen cells on Thursday thats 4 days since last inspection if nothing is happening thereI may unite it with the swarm. Thanks to all for advice.

Couple of points:

- will all the brood not be too old now to permit more queen cells to be produced?
- why unite? Are you not better waiting?

The queen in the original hive may take a month to mate and start laying. Up to that point, be careful what you do. She may have orientated to that location, and there will be another queen (I forget whether a virgin or a mated queen) in the swarm. Better to give them the chance to mate and get established, then decide what to do.