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Thread: New queen loose somewhere.

  1. #1
    Senior Member Greengage's Avatar
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    Default New queen loose somewhere.

    Hive 1,On Friday last had new queen emerge from supercedure cell. Went through hive and removed all other queen cells. I assumed everything would be ok. Because it was supercedure the old together in the hive until the new one was mated.
    Sunday the hive swarmed found old queen on ground outside and placed her in Nuc wiith some stores and frames of bees.
    Rechecked the first hive (Hive1) and found another sealed queen cell, which I missed on previous inspection, so left that in place with a posible new unclipped queen in Hive Why?
    Because I could not locate the new queen (Unmated) so dont know if she is in there or not. She could have been transferred to Nuc.
    Anyway in setting up the Nuc I now do not know if the new Queen was accidently transfered into the nuc with the Old Queen or if she is still in the other hive.
    So I now have a Hive wiith a sealed cell and a posible new queen in there.
    I have a Nuc with an old queen and posibly a newly hatched unmated queen.
    What is liable to happen Now?
    If the new queen is in Hive 1 with a sealed queen cell is it likely to swarm again or will the new queen kill the sealed queen.
    If I only have a sealed queen cell she will emerge and get mated and all will be well.
    In the nuc if I have only the old queen all should be well as she is a last years queen.
    In the Nuc if I have two queens an old queen an a newly emerged queen from the supercedure will it swarm.
    What do you think will happen. As a lecture once said to me Discuss, I went DOOOH
    Appreciate any advice tks.
    Last edited by Greengage; 16-05-2016 at 08:21 AM.

  2. #2
    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    First of all, this wasn't a supersedure. Just the usual swarming preparations.

    If there is a virgin in the nuc with the old queen she'll likely be history by now.

    Yes, there is a strong risk that the box with the queen cell will, if there is a virgin in there too, swarm (though it might not). Are you in a position to make a small split into a nuc box with the queen cell? That would mean that the risk of the virgin being in there is lower, and if they do swarm it will be a small one. Make sure it isn't so weak that the cell gets chilled. Then see if the main box of bees settles, or starts more queen cells (there should still be 1 day old larvae today). If it does, then you could remove them and reunite with the queen cell (but don't delay in case she emerges and starts orientating).

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    Senior Member Greengage's Avatar
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    Appreciate that thanks, I will check again in couple of days.
    I thought if the cell was in the middle of a frame it was supercedure and those hanging from the sides or the bottom were swarm cells. I had noted this cell which I called a supercedure on the face of a comb which I believed was different to the swarm cells or emergency cells as it hung straight down and did not protrude out from the face and then down.
    Would I be right in assuming that if it was a supercedure it would only be one cell and no other queen cells of any discription visible in the hive. Thanks for your time.

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    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Supersedure cells can be anywhere on the frame and swarm cells can be anywhere on the frame.
    if there are only one or two cells it is likely supersedure, any more and it is normal swarm preparations.

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    Senior Member Greengage's Avatar
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    Thanks for that Jon, but having read through my Litriture and looked on line at photos all indications pointed to supercedure, cell located in right place, propor profile as per pictures and only one other cell that I noticed and removed, looks like I missed one so was wrong, Is there any foolproof way to tel,l yes, thats supercedure or mmmm thats swarm preperation, I also believed the hive would only swarm once the cell was capped but these swarmed 3 days after the new queen emerged.

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    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    As Jon said, cell position is no guide. If they make 1 or 2 cells then stop making any more, it is probably supersedure. However even then - in the main swarming season - I would be cautious. Clipping queens is the best protection against losing a swarm in these circumstances.

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    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greengage View Post
    Appreciate that thanks, I will check again in couple of days.
    Looking through your post again, the first swarm cell opened two days before the swarm. You probably allowed that by opening the hive - up to that point the bees would be holding that virgin in and they would all be waiting for some reason (weather?) for a swarming opportunity. With the old queen swarming two days later that would give her plenty of time to kill her daughter. After she's gone they will let another virgin out once she's ready. So I don't think you need worry about a virgin on the loose.

    I would check that they haven't raised additional queen cells since Sunday as they could cause a cast when the first virgin is ready to fly.

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    Senior Member Greengage's Avatar
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    Ok that would make sence, As it now stands there is one and only one sealed queen cell in the hive that swarmed, I now assume the old queen killed the newly hatched queen before swarming, The old queen is in a nuc box in the same apiary and the hive that swarmed is now queenless exceppt for the sealed queen cell.
    So if the newly sealed queen cell is a failure I could reunite the Nuc with the main hive in a few weeks, would I be right in my thinking, this would only occur if the sealed queen fails to emerge and mate.

  9. #9

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    Its no help to you GG now but for those horrible moments when you find queen cells and eggs but cant spot the queen this might e a useful trick
    http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/taranovswm.html

    I havent used a Taranov board but it looks like a simple way of getting the queen and the swarm bees off to a new home before they do their own thing
    Has anyone tried this ?

    Excuse typos there are stiking keys on this keyboard

  10. #10
    Senior Member Adam's Avatar
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    You have one of those difficult situations that comes along now and again.. Fun times!

    If you are not sure whether you have a virgin with a queencell as well, you could 'pull' the queen out of it's queencell - i.e. open it up gently and don't pull! With two or more queens and no queencells you will not get a swarm as the girls will sort things out for themselves. If the pulled queen is not viable because she is too young then you could possibly have a queenless colony. However you have possibly prevented a swarm with the virgin leaving the single queencell behind.

    No matter - as you have your mated queen in a nuc which will presumably start to lay soon, you can pop a frame of eggs/larvae into the donor colony. If there are queencells, it WAS queenless. If there are no queencells, then there's a virgin in there somewhere.

    (Sorry - 3 days too late perhaps?)

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