Scottish Government report on the 'Restocking Options' study

[drumgerry]

That's exactly the point I was making Emma. My honest opinion is that a sustainable, organised system of bee production and beekeeping education is simply not going to arise out of the current association setup based on volunteer labour - the price of a mid season nuc is simply not sufficient return for a season's worth of mentoring in addition to the cost of the bees supplied.

Probably Gavin could answer this for us but I suspect Scotgov are looking at alternatives to such an approach. Perhaps something properly funded to be put in place in the various regions. Perhaps a number of 1/2 jobs throughout the country along the lines of what Bernard Mobus did at Craibstone. Post holders to develop regional beekeeping education and queen/nuc rearing systems. Possibly with access to a fund where they can award grants to individuals carrying out such activities for the greater good. Or funding to set up regional apiaries to implement education and queen/nuc production. I am being optimistic perhaps but they did ask the question so they must be thinking about it.

[The Drone Ranger]

I think Emma you would favour something like a course of 10 Sunday afternoon practicals
Sorry Fatshark I don't really have plans I'm just making a suggestion but beekeeping courses in Winter are for the improvers I would say
Stuff like dissection and microscopy and the contents of a bees wazoo etc

heres a little tale
When I started trout fishing as a hobby I was lucky and was taught casting after school by an enthusiastic teacher with a lot of other kids
Lots of years went by till I worked for Hawker Siddley they had a fishing club and I started match fishing
Then it was back to sea fishing then trout fishing
I bought a rod lines reel and lots of stuff I didn't really need and fished in various lakes reservoirs etc
They all cost quite a bit for a day ticket
We had an ex British Fly casting champion living nearby and my friend Pete and I took several lessons from him as improvers it was worth the cost

The interest though had began long before when my Grandfather used to take us fishing as kids
If I had kept it going that might have been enough
So I think the practical comes first then a bit of theory and if you think its needed some more advanced stuff

[fatshark]

Stuff like dissection and microscopy and the contents of a bees wazoo etc

None of that would be in my introductory course Or should be. I reckon you could get the entire thing into four sessions. Furthermore, the principles of things like swarm control are actually more important in some ways than the practice. In my experience people get hung up on which box goes where without remembering you're simply trying to separate the queen from the brood, or whatever.

A solution has to be 'distributed' ... no-one is going to traipse long distances for regular training. That's why I'd suggest an association-level/local mentoring. All I was really suggesting was formalising it a bit more, making any training in the mentors apiary (so no additional travelling) with the mentors bees, but with a guaranteed sale of a nuc included. The price for the latter could be raised to make it more realistic of the effort involved.

Emma makes an interesting point re. training ... are there any individuals offering paid-for training in beekeeping? Andrew on Colonsay of course for one-off weeks, and some II I'm aware of, but anything else? An interesting idea ...

DR ... we share another interest. I also fish for trout and sea-trout (primarily now on the Eden, but all over the place in my time). When I moved house recently I had to reveal all the stuff I'd purchased but didn't really need. I'm sure some of my rods have been breeding ... there are surely more 8' four weights than I've ever purchased.

At least, that's my story.

[drumgerry]

I can think of a few people doing training courses fatshark. I trained a small group last summer in grafting/queen rearing over a couple of sessions. It was offered through our association but it was me that was doing it. The fee was modest and split between me and the association. There's probably a fair few ad hoc things like that kicking about.

Interested to read yours and DR's and Emma's and everyone's thoughts on education/bee supply. It's a bit like a brain storming session to expand the basic data collected in Gavin's report.

I've been a bit of a fisherman in my time as well although I'm considering myself having taken early retirement from it now. The last thing I used to do was float tubing on lochs - like a floating armchair. Amazing how close you can get to the fish in one of those

[gavin]

The course we've run in the East of Scotland BA for several years comprises 4 two-hour evening indoor sessions (Feb and Mar), lightened by interspersing PowerPoint stuff with more practical demos, then two afternoon apiary sessions (Apr and May if the weather cooperates). We didn't particularly like the BBKA Course in a Case so this was written by members. All the tutors do things free of charge (we don't mind ... ) and as far as I can tell all beginners who want them get bees locally, mostly from the association apiary but also from other members ... and we all charge too little at £125 per 5-frame stock. The tutor quality has been nudged upwards here and there over the years, and now we have a very well qualified (and brilliant, lovely!) guy in charge. There are also SBA training sessions for trainers (18 and 19 April for the next ones) and that should also help boost the quality across Scotland.

The beginners are also invited to additional sessions at the association apiary and usually they have an appetite for that. Didn't go so well last year (I was distracted and the weather was poor) but in some years and in 2016 it will be great experience for them.

New beekeepers are invited to ask for a mentor. Often the person they get bees from is their first port of call but there is a mechanism to spread the load around others in our association too.

Seeing the discussion here, and watching what happens elsewhere, I think we have got this right, as long as there is someone to carry the effort at the association apiary. I'm in the process of succession management there, we'll see how that goes. So, we are 100% self-sufficient for bees and for training. It does involve quite a bit of unpaid effort though.

The issue was raised earlier of the churn and the class members who don't take it up at all, or who don't last as beekeepers. I'm comfortable with our attrition rate. All we can do is be honest at the start (on cost, difficulty, personal risk, commitment required) and be as supportive as we can with continuing support, while expecting people to work towards their own self-sufficiency. Perhaps half of ours never try to take it up and of the rest maybe half or two thirds stick with it in the long run. By that measure our class of about 33 this year should produce 8-10 new beekeepers (although some travel some distance so we'll lose touch with them quickly I would imagine).

We do have some beginners who head off thinking that they know it all, and they don't. Not many, but their areas are always good places to site bait hives :-) A few are a bit clingy, needing more support than is reasonable. They usually come to realise that servicing their needs is seldom your top priority in the busy season, and so they improve.

Here's what I think we need to make things better:

- spreading good practice around a bit more
- physical resources that would help (equipment to make things happen)
- maybe better online resources to help with the first
- regional groupings so that the little associations can make things happen
- promoting good quality training so that folk are directed to good LAs rather than the haphard additional stuff available in some places

We manage expectations for bees simply by being open on the timing from the start. Some are impatient and buy full colonies from members earlier than the current year's nucs are avaiable. Generally that leads to difficulties but it is usually the more keen beginners who try that option and they are often the ones who do cope (after a brief wobbly period!).

Whether folk start our course and never become beekeepers doesn't really bother me as long as they enjoy the course and leave it with a good impression of what beekeeping is about. Much better explaining the difficulties than telling them all is easy and watching them fail within the first year or two.

I guess I'm agreeing with you that an integrated i) training ii) bee supply iii) aftercare system is the ideal, and there are associations that do this quite well. College courses and the like fail the last two of these. Businesses sometimes do the first in the hope of also getting the second. Some individuals use the internet to jump straight to number 2 and miss out on the others. It is, of course, possible to get into beekeeping and succeed, more or less, by getting some bees then reading lots of books (did that myself) but working with the local beekeeper community is bound to be better.

I have to say I think that the more recent beekeepers turn out to be better beekeepers than some who have been keeping them for decades. We also have some very experienced and very good older beekeepers (older than me ... ) but some of the longer established beekeepers are also swarm factories.

Trout fishing? Someone mention *trout fishing*?!!

[The Drone Ranger]

I don't think there's a problem to be solved here it all seems to be sorted
I'm a bit out of touch

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[Calluna4u]

If all the recommendations from the beekeeping associations changed from "buy a nuc in spring" to "buy a hive of bees in August" the demand for imports would be reduced

The commercial beekeepers and the UK bee producers would be able to supply the demand
It's better for the supply chain

Not going to happen in the real world.

1. Folk traditionally think they are potentially buying a winter loss.

2, Not even any honey in the first 9 or 10 months? No going in to play with them?

Then the big one for commercial producers......no matter where you are in Europe they do NOT sell the family silver.....by which it means they do not sell good bees immediately before the most valuable flow (often acacia) unless they are going to be paid for the envisaged nominal crop too. ( A nuc or package can cost over 200 euros at source in E. Europe before or during the acacia, and a week after wards you can get the same weight of bees and a queen for 130 euros less, even cheaper sometimes. Should be a cautionary tale about buying E. Europe bees at reasonable price before the acacia is over in early June, they may not be what you think.) Sorry for the illustrative digression.

If you want to buy a full colony from me at the start of August it would set you back at least 400 pounds, if I would even entertain the idea. I would be foregoing the heather crop from that hive, and our long term average for a normal colony is 44.2lb, so a hive with bees I MIGHT think about selling at 250pounds (still cheap) immediately has a value 150 pounds higher. Its irrelevant if the new owner wants to take it to the heather or not. I would. Specially produced nucs............yes but reluctantly and with a health warning, and a suggestion to order now if they wish but let me bring it through winter.

Gavins exercise was a valuable look at a lot of stuff that had never been properly collated before, to enable those in power to have a look at how things can be improved. Do not expect much cash thrown at it, it is not there to throw.

It is a much more holistic solution that is being looked at and economic factors are part of it. This forum has run way off topic and into Utopia again, but not a surprise.

Apart from a single suggestion (albeit a serious one) that some if not most professional beekeepers should leave their profession, the vast majority of opinion on here focusses on training new beekeepers and supplying them with cheap or subsidised bees. This is way off the target as its the existing individuals and enterprises that are the rock (or sand) that sustainability will be built on.

The internet generation have become accustomed to everything being provided for nothing or very little, and they even demand a standard of service for stuff that is almost free. Several have touched on this in responses but it still seems to boil down to a totally amateur solution, where volunteers give of their time free or for cost, and they are training newbies.

For there to be a sustainable solution it HAS to be based on people getting properly rewarded for their time and skills. Once it gets to that then there is also a right to expect a level of training that is sensible and follows some kind of standard format with universally agreed basics. Otherwise, when its the enthusiastic amateur, you are totally open to the trainer only following their own doctrines and ways, producing followers rather than what would be universally understood to be a good beekeeper.

Then there is then economics. The Scottish economy is one of the factors being borne in mind at government level. Whilst not specifically in Gavins brief as far as I know, it is for sure a factor influencing decisions at the higher levels.

Eradication of the professionals seriously reduces the availability of targeted pollination, and the iconic product Heather Honey would no long generate the millions it does. This primarily comes from the professional sector who may be the minority of individuals but have a very significant proportion of the colonies and an actual majority of the traded and sold honey, so economically dominate. Might be unpalatable for many on here but sorry, it is so.

So, sustainability HAS to focus heavily on those with most impact and most need to be sustainable. Its not a situation that will be sorted out in any way by churning ever more new starters. An amateur based solution that relies on folk doing things for nothing and being around almost 24/7 to answer the endless daft questions is not going to go anywhere other than just about where we are now. If you want it to be different then STOP doing things for nothing and giving bees to them for uneconomic rates....the professionals or even self financing amateurs will have no incentive to produce, and the buyers no incentive to buy if they know Joe and Jane Bloggs are going to do it out of charity.

If it does not pay then it is not going to happen.

[drumgerry]

There's probably 50% of what you're saying there C4U that I agree with.

As to beekeeping's benefit to the economy I think you're right to say the commercial sector dominates in terms of the honey market. What hasn't been quantified is what benefit we "amateurs" are to the Scottish economy. I think it could be added up and will be a significant amount. I think to prioritise commercial or amateur is a mistake - solutions need to be about both sectors.

I agree completely on professionalism and the something for nothing culture of beekeepers. It relies too heavily on the goodwill of particular individuals. Goodwill that can rapidly evaporate where people take you for a mug.

I'm probably the one you mean suggesting as you put it

"that some if not most professional beekeepers should leave their profession"

Not what I said. What I said was if they can't operate sustainably by which I mean refrain from importing packages/queens repeatedly as a result of poor practice and heavy winter losses then they should maybe find alternative employment. If that's not exactly what I said it's what I meant.

And you say this forum has Utopian tendencies? I thought we were all here to explore ideas.

[Greengage]

I am not a professional bee keeper and have no intention of being one I dont even know if I will be doing it next year, I got into this by accident, someone with more clout in the pecking order than me thought they were contribution to "SAVING THE BEES" I ended up with the bees or they unfortunately ended up with me. But I can see the point being made by Calluna4u. I was previously self employed and a chap said to me one day If you want to work for nothing you will always be busy. Having attended numerous talks and conferences on bee keeping I am amazed at the enthusiasm of the amateur sector to keep their federations going for years. with little or no reward for the effort. I do know a few (2) who do it for a living but it will not make you a millionaire. I have also met lots of well meaning bee keepers who know very little but are never shy to give their opinions on what the best practice should be.Another point I noticed I have met no bee keepers between the ages of 18 and 40 with lots much older and retired looking for something to do and some with more money than sense. Met one guy who bought 4 queens for €40 euros each and threw them all into the one hive, I asked why he did that and he said sure they will fight it out and the fittest will survive, OK. Next met a chap who bought lock stock and barrel from chap giving up, cost him a couple of 1000s. Me I would be too tight reckon I can pick up swarms locally and local pest control person asked me to collect her swarms. Might know nothing about bee keeping but was always fascinated by entomology from very young age. Easier to look after bumblebees and Butterflies than Honey bees,

[The Drone Ranger]

I still say buy a full hive after the swarming season is past
Pay for your training and you will get some

Let's talk fishing instead

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